Middle East situation

[Jpez]

Hamas have declared Holy war/Jihad against Israel which LITERALLY means kill them all. That's why they sent hundreds of rockets into Israel.
Unless you think "Drive them out" means they were willing to organise Ubers and minivans?

I’ve got a friend. A kind caring lefty friend that I’ve always seen eye to eye with. She’s Jewish. Not Israeli. She posted something the other day that indicated that she was more than fine with the bulk slaughter of the Palestinians. I didn’t respond to that and I kinda wish Id kept my mouth shut in this case too as it’s not my wheelhouse. Too emotive as your Uber and minivan comment well displays.
Israel created Hamas. Indirectly. Not saying that what Hamas did was right by a long shot but it’s not surprising in any way. A caged dog will eventually lash out.
What is surprising to me is that normal everyday people like you I assume are saying it’s absolutely fine to destroy a population with extreme cruelty to achieve the aim of destroying Hamas which by the way I agree have to go. But not at this cost and the fact that our government annd other western governments are standing by and not condemning this slaughter shames me.
Anyway I’m out.

 

[Tubbsy]

Well said @Jpez

Decades of escalation and the world has been unable to make things right; pretty safe to say this thread on Rotorburn ain't gonna do it.

 

[mas2]

Actually it literally doesn't mean that. It translates as struggle, even if the likes of ISIS say otherwise.

In this case it doesn't matter what you think it means, it doesn't matter what I think it means, it doesn't matter what ISIS thinks it means, it matters what Hamas thinks it means. Hamas thinks it means armed struggle. Look at their beliefs (Jihad) and combine them with their actions (Rockets into Israel) and it's pretty clear.

I think you can probably take your own advice here.

A good starting point for any conversation on the topic, for everyone in the thread, is to acknowledge that all Palestinians are not/do not agree with Hamas, and equally all Jews/Israelis are not/do not agree with Zionists or Netenyahu's government.

Where have I not been balanced? I never claimed innocence of anyone or any group just that we don't have all the information.

 

[Rusty_68]

Any God fearing Bible bashers amongst us?

Anyone here believe that the Israeli/Gaza war is the beginning of the so-called seven year war of Armageddon, which after, the Lord God will reveal his all powerful hand in the interest of his “distressed people” and defeat all his enemies in what most traditional interpretations of the bible believe to be “the great day of God”?

Anyone….Anyone….??

Ok. Lets move on. All this is supposed to kick off at Mount Megiddo, which is actually in Northern Israel and not Palestine. Oh and it’s not a mount either. It’s a mound of dirt formed by thousands of people over many generations living there and rebuilding it. So not that flash really? And definitely not in Palestine. But hey, a few miles here, a few thousand dead Palestinians there, what’s the problem.

All this is based on a nonsense script that was written, repeated and embellished hundreds of times, thousands of years ago, until we get to where we are today. And the next day, and the next, until we are in the same place hundreds of years from today.

I could go on, but what’s the point? We take a side and then cherry pick the facts about history and religion that we want, to suit our own greed and ignorance.

I really hope Jesus makes a comeback. It’s going to be one hell of a show to see the likes of Netanyahu, Putin, Trump, Xi, and king of the KFC’s (the pope), taking orders from a black fella.

 

[Tubbsy]

Where have I not been balanced?

easy to condemn Israel and ignore the role Hamas has played in this (e.g. this entire thread).

How about the above.

I'm not going to get into a tedious argument with you because you will make my day extra fucking tedious.

If you have a bias, or want to make posts addressing only one side's failings that's fine. You're not the only one in the thread doing it, but drop the holier-than-thou attitude.

 

[mas2]

I’ve got a friend. A kind caring lefty friend that I’ve always seen eye to eye with. She’s Jewish. Not Israeli. She posted something the other day that indicated that she was more than fine with the bulk slaughter of the Palestinians. I didn’t respond to that and I kinda wish Id kept my mouth shut in this case too as it’s not my wheelhouse. Too emotive as your Uber and minivan comment well displays.
Israel created Hamas. Indirectly. Not saying that what Hamas did was right by a long shot but it’s not surprising in any way. A caged dog will eventually lash out.

What is surprising to me is that normal everyday people like you I assume are saying it’s absolutely fine to destroy a population with extreme cruelty to achieve the aim of destroying Hamas which by the way I agree have to go. But not at this cost and the fact that our government and other western governments are standing by and not condemning this slaughter shames me.
Anyway I’m out.

Yep it's an incredibly sad situation and all I am trying to get at is that I think people aren't treating it like the incredibly complicated situation that it is. The uber/minivan comment was light hearted, not emotional, and just meant to convey that the phrase "drive out" just sounds nicer than what it actually means. I don't know of anyone who is pro-extreme cruelty and am surprised you felt that through what I have written.

 

[LPG]

The whole issue is a mess. "Giving" a part of Palestine to Jews/creating Israel is a pretty genius strategic move but also pretty horrific. In Europe Jews went through the holocaust. They needed a land of their own.

"Let's give them someone else's land and let them be the western worlds outpost in the middle east. They've been fighting to keep their culture and people alive and dealing with genocide, I'm sure they will be accommodating of the inhabitants that oppose their land being taken. "

I don't know the solution now that we are where we are. The start should be for war crimes from either side being prosecuted.

 

[mas2]

How about the above.

I'm not going to get into a tedious argument with you because you will make my day extra fucking tedious.

If you have a bias, or want to make posts addressing only one side's failings that's fine. You're not the only one in the thread doing it, but drop the holier-than-thou attitude.

Sorry but I looked through the thread again and can't find anyone condemning Hamas but can find plenty condemnation of Israel. I just think that for the current war this should be the starting point of the discussion that is often missed but really do appreciate the comments people have made that go more into the history of the events and sadness of it all.

I think everyone is biased and never claimed to be the only one addressing it in this thread and think plenty of wrong has been and will be done on both sides in this war.

 

[Tubbsy]

can't find anyone condemning Hamas but can find plenty condemnation of Israel.

There you go making my day tedious. I can't arrange an equal amount of 'burners equally condemning the various actors in the conflict. Imagine how many pushy's vouchers that'll cost me.

You want to have a nuanced conversation, so start one.

 

[LPG]

Sorry but I looked through the thread again and can't find anyone condemning Hamas but can find plenty condemnation of Israel. I just think that for the current war this should be the starting point of the discussion that is often missed but really do appreciate the comments people have made that go more into the history of the events and sadness of it all.

I think everyone is biased and never claimed to be the only one addressing it in this thread and think plenty of wrong has been and will be done on both sides in this war.

People aren't condemning Hamas because it doesn't need to be said. What Hamas is doing is wrong and well accepted to be wrong. Mass killing of civilians by Israel should not be tolerated. Killing of civilians by Hamas (in much lower numbers) is also wrong.

Our/western governments support Israel and do little to nothing to condemn them. We as the population are raising the issue as we believe our government should do more to discourage Israel from committing warcrimes. If we were supplying Hamas with aid, munitions and trading with them like we do Israel I'm sure there would be just as much concern.

Edit: We above is referencing "Western Power" including Australia.

 

[Asininedrivel]

Sorry but I looked through the thread again and can't find anyone condemning Hamas but can find plenty condemnation of Israel.

I see where you're coming from given the hysterical rage outs and spamming of dubious content that's occurred on this forum is indistinguishable from the bile and hatred that's flooded vast swathes of the internet over the last month or so. But I still think Israel's response is completely unjustified. If they'd responded to the October 7 attacks with prioritising rescuing hostages (presumably via extraction team operations) while utilising bombing or otherwise attacking known Hamas strongholds throughout Gaza as cover I and I suspect many other people would not have objected. But they didn't.

This is not a measured response, it's spiteful retaliation at best and an unsubtle warning to anyone else (mainly Hezbollah and Iran) to never even consider violating Israeli sovereignty or else Beirut or Tehran will end up the same. And if it was any other country (okay, not Saudi Arabia, the UAE or Russia) Australia would already be a part of a coalition reducing their operational capabilities by bombing their airfields and military sites to stop it.

 

[The Dude]

Decades of escalation and the world has been unable to make things right; pretty safe to say this thread on Rotorburn ain't gonna do it.

Shirley we've made a serious dent in the propagation of internally routed headsets, though???

 

[mas2]

People aren't condemning Hamas because it doesn't need to be said. What Hamas is doing is wrong and well accepted to be wrong. Mass killing of civilians by Israel should not be tolerated. Killing of civilians by Hamas (in much lower numbers) is also wrong.

Our/western governments support Israel and do little to nothing to condemn them. We as the population are raising the issue as we believe our government should do more to discourage Israel from committing warcrimes. If we were supplying Hamas with aid, munitions and trading with them like we do Israel I'm sure there would be just as much concern.

Edit: We above is referencing "Western Power" including Australia.

Thanks for that, it's helping me clear out my thoughts. Don't feel like you have to reply to all or any of this. I am probably wrong in some of this but just wanted to get it down.

• I think it is a mistake not condemning Hamas at the beginning as I think it is the starting point of the current war. When seen through the lens of who Hamas is, what they have done, and how they operate then, to me, it makes more sense why lots of innocent civilians are involved.
• When the current war is seen through history it makes me more sympathetic to Palestine
• I understand the fear is that Israel will use the current situation to unjustifiably kill Palestinian civilians but I don't know how, with the limited information we have, that lots of people seem to be 100% certain that Israel is mainly operating out of spite against civilians rather then them being focused on getting Hamas.
• I don't think there is an acceptable ratio of our deaths vs your deaths that can justify who is in the right or wrong. I would prefer no deaths.
• I don't trust the Israeli government but have no idea if I was in their shoes what an appropriate response would even look like.
• I don't know everything that Western governments and our military leaders know about the situation but considering only Ireland (I think) was against Israel's response then I either need to believe that they all feel that the info justifies the war or they are all morally bankrupt.
• I think the Palestinian government has blame for the deaths of their civilians too.
• I think we hold Israel to a significantly higher standard than Hamas while they are trying to fight Hamas.
• I think people on this forum have a strong sense of justice and I have read up on war crimes recently and how long hard they are to prosecute for and don't think we can expect anyone will be held responsible for anything during this time.

 

[mas2]

I see where you're coming from given the hysterical rage outs and spamming of dubious content that's occurred on this forum is indistinguishable from the bile and hatred that's flooded vast swathes of the internet over the last month or so. But I still think Israel's response is completely unjustified. If they'd responded to the October 7 attacks with prioritising rescuing hostages (presumably via extraction team operations) while utilising bombing or otherwise attacking known Hamas strongholds throughout Gaza as cover I and I suspect many other people would not have objected. But they didn't.

This is not a measured response, it's spiteful retaliation at best and an unsubtle warning to anyone else (mainly Hezbollah and Iran) to never even consider violating Israeli sovereignty or else Beirut or Tehran will end up the same. And if it was any other country (okay, not Saudi Arabia, the UAE or Russia) Australia would already be a part of a coalition reducing their operational capabilities by bombing their airfields and military sites to stop it.

Thanks for that. I'll have a think about it.

 

[johnny]

Any God fearing Bible bashers amongst us?

Anyone here believe that the Israeli/Gaza war is the beginning of the so-called seven year war of Armageddon, which after, the Lord God will reveal his all powerful hand in the interest of his “distressed people” and defeat all his enemies in what most traditional interpretations of the bible believe to be “the great day of God”?

Anyone….Anyone….??

Ok. Lets move on. All this is supposed to kick off at Mount Megiddo, which is actually in Northern Israel and not Palestine. Oh and it’s not a mount either. It’s a mound of dirt formed by thousands of people over many generations living there and rebuilding it. So not that flash really? And definitely not in Palestine. But hey, a few miles here, a few thousand dead Palestinians there, what’s the problem.

All this is based on a nonsense script that was written, repeated and embellished hundreds of times, thousands of years ago, until we get to where we are today. And the next day, and the next, until we are in the same place hundreds of years from today.

I could go on, but what’s the point? We take a side and then cherry pick the facts about history and religion that we want, to suit our own greed and ignorance.

I really hope Jesus makes a comeback. It’s going to be one hell of a show to see the likes of Netanyahu, Putin, Trump, Xi, and king of the KFC’s (the pope), taking orders from a black fella.

I've always loved how the importance of Megiddo in the end of times prophecy basically suggested that all outside of the Judaeo-Christian world was basically irrelevant - their wars and tribulations were the only happenings of importance in the world and that everything began and ended with them.

I'm sure most millenarianist cults are the same, I just love the self-centred dramatics that you get around the Levant.

 

[LPG]

Thanks for that, it's helping me clear out my thoughts. Don't feel like you have to reply to all or any of this. I am probably wrong in some of this but just wanted to get it down.

• I think it is a mistake not condemning Hamas at the beginning as I think it is the starting point of the current war. When seen through the lens of who Hamas is, what they have done, and how they operate then, to me, it makes more sense why lots of innocent civilians are involved.
• When the current war is seen through history it makes me more sympathetic to Palestine
• I understand the fear is that Israel will use the current situation to unjustifiably kill Palestinian civilians but I don't know how, with the limited information we have, that lots of people seem to be 100% certain that Israel is mainly operating out of spite against civilians rather then them being focused on getting Hamas.
• I don't think there is an acceptable ratio of our deaths vs your deaths that can justify who is in the right or wrong. I would prefer no deaths.
• I don't trust the Israeli government but have no idea if I was in their shoes what an appropriate response would even look like.
• I don't know everything that Western governments and our military leaders know about the situation but considering only Ireland (I think) was against Israel's response then I either need to believe that they all feel that the info justifies the war or they are all morally bankrupt.
• I think the Palestinian government has blame for the deaths of their civilians too.
• I think we hold Israel to a significantly higher standard than Hamas while they are trying to fight Hamas.
• I think people on this forum have a strong sense of justice and I have read up on war crimes recently and how long hard they are to prosecute for and don't think we can expect anyone will be held responsible for anything during this time.

We have few ties with Hamas. Condemning them is about as effective as a Ugandan priest condemning Australia for allowing gay marriage.

Are you aware that "Palestine" isn't actually a country? The 2 state solution that Israel is against is simplistically a solution where the Palestinian controlled areas within Israel can actually be treated as a country, not a territory within Israel. Have you seen a map of what was Palestine and what is now Israel. Keep in mind this has all happened since 1948 with more land taken by Israel in 1968. Palestine literally does not exist except the territories within Israel (which was 100% Palestine before 1948). Many of our parents were born when Palestine was a country with ~30% Jewish population. That land is now Israel with a couple Palestinian territories. Hamas is undoubtedly a terrorist group but they have every right to be furious with what has happened to their land and lives.

We do and should hold Israel to a higher standard than Hamas. Israel is a country that allies itself with the west. We (western world in general) trade with them, supply military equipment / weaponry and give them aid. Hamas is recognised as a terrorist organisation. We should absolutely hold Israel to a higher standard than a terrorist organisation.

 

[Calvin27]

I think it is a mistake not condemning Hamas at the beginning as I think it is the starting point of the current war.

Very interesting perspective. Most people would argue 1948 was the beginning and it's just been one long continuous war.

 

[mas2]

Very interesting perspective. Most people would argue 1948 was the beginning and it's just been one long continuous war.

That's why I said current war. Maybe phase of the war would have been better usage. I think people would also say it goes further back than that too.

 

[Freediver]

Very interesting perspective. Most people would argue 1948 was the beginning and it's just been one long continuous war.

'47

 

[safreek]

So, if you were an all powerful being tasked with setting up this ultimate cage match, what weapons, if any, would be allowed?

I would give them all cattle prods and the music of Mariah Carey.

I think loudspeaker playing "tones and I" through the whole region would get them all running.
The thought of millions of people being cattle prodded would be great TV viewing