Can America be fixed?

johnny

johnny

I'll tells ya!
Staff member
I did some research ages ago, that I looked into again because of this thread and the silly shit old mate Zaf was posting. If I recall correctly, mass shooting means the shooting death of 5 or more people, including the shooter themselves. There have been a number of them, but they are dominated by family murder/suicides. I don't believe that these should be included as in these cases the gun is a bit more irrelevant. The victims are known to the killer and most of them are usually kids. That means they are usually in the family home and not in a shopping mall, church, or other places where if some one had tried to attack with a knife/baseball bat, they'd likely be overwhelemed or outrun by the victims.

But in the household environment, people are often killed in their sleep or they are so young that they can't fend off the killer, meaning that the outcome would have been the same regardless of the weapon.

Bottom line is, under Australia's definition, we have had numerous mass shootings. However, they are not the same as the mass shootings we've become accustomed to in the US and lumping these two groups of stats together is misleading. .


johnny said:
So I had a little bit of time on my hands today and I figured that I'd go back and check how my memory fared regards these cases and some research I did just after the Lindt Siege for work purposes. Here's what I found:

1 - The Monash University shootings - the shooter was licensed to hold the weapons he used to commit the murders - https://web.archive.org/web/2004091...ews/politics/2002/10/item20021023002157_1.htm

2 - Hectorville - weapon was legally owned before being taken and used by the killer - http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/...s/news-story/7d8cd40d20bbb2fd7773934ef7109335

3 - Hunt family shootings - unable to find any information on the legality of the weapon and licensing of the murderer

Because of the above two grey areas I looked for another incident around the same era with similar circumstances and I found the Wedderburn shootings

4 - Wedderburn shootings - the weapon was legally owned, the killer was licensed to hold such weapon - http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-10-...amily-make-emotional-gun-control-plea/5838614

5 - Lindt Siege - Monis was not licensed to carry a firearm after 2000 (prior to that he was licensed). The bullets he used were between 15 - 20 years old and the shotgun he used was over 50 years old and untraceable. The Coroner's report stated that the weapon may well have been imported into Australia legally and entered the grey market when not handed back during the buy-back scheme (have to note that it may well have been imported illegally, impossible to tell) https://www.pmc.gov.au/sites/default/files/publications/170215_Martin_Place_Siege_Review_1.pdf

6 - Port Arthur massacre - Bryant purchased the weapon from a legal owner of the firearm. He was supposed to show a license for purchase but claims that he did not - https://au.news.yahoo.com/sunday-night/a/31076116/bryant-port-arthur-wouldnt-have-happened/


Conclusions:

1 case inconclusive out of lack of evidence based on internet searches.
1 case is inconclusive with the type of firearm in question previously legal
4 cases show a situation where the gun was legally owned prior to being used illegally

4 of the cases show a person that was previously a 'law abiding' person - these are people who have no criminal record for violent acts, theft, robbery or anything that I could uncover - became criminals by their act of carrying out a mass shooting. Some of them are noted for being model citizens like the killer in the Hunt family murders. Man Monis was a known criminal under numerous investigations. In one case the gun owner was a law abiding citizen and were found to have stored their weapons legally.


Outcomes:

Using this small amount of cases, based on the suggestion of an anti-gun control advocate, it can be shown that in the majority of cases the firearms used in mass killings including and since Port Arthur were originally 'legal' - that is purchased and owned legally by a licensed or legal owner.

Secondly, this small sample shows that people who are otherwise law abiding citizens only become criminals by way of carrying out mass shootings. That would suggest that to argue law abiding citizens are punished for the acts of a few criminals is erroneous given that those few criminals were law abiding citizens up until the very moment they carried out a mass shooting. This suggests that law abiding citizens can be just as risky and dangerous to the general society when armed as a known criminal.

And finally, it suggests that my original question was not based on any bias but on an accurate memory based on prior research. This would then suggest that there is room for the argument that the disproportionate and overwhelming response to my question was, in actual fact, an indication of strong bias or an absolute misreading of my intention based on the lack of tone in written text. This is even more interesting given that the disproportionate response to my question was prefaced with a claim of respect given that the following words would be forceful and may be misread due to the lack of tone in text.
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pink poodle

pink poodle

気が狂っている男
beeb said:
Isn’t he in your neck of the woods now? You should yelling “Yiew!” and high-5ing each other at the end of your sick dirt lump jump lines!
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He did move here just before the incident. Our paths have never crossed, despite being small place with few riding options. Or its a whole fight club situation and I just haven't realised that I and he are we yet.
 
Flow-Rider

Flow-Rider

Burner
389965


"School shootings are a form of gun violence that involves an attack via firearms and takes place at an educational institution, such as a primary school, secondary school, or university. While many school shootings are resolved with zero fatalities, many others result in gun-related deaths, and some are also considered mass shootings because of the number of people injured or killed by the attack. The United States has endured hundreds more school shootings than any other country in recent years."

19 Countries with the Most School Shootings (total incidents Jan 2009-May 2018 - CNN):
  • United States — 288
  • Mexico — 8
  • South Africa — 6
  • India — 5
  • Nigeria & Pakistan — 4
  • Afghanistan — 3
  • Brazil, Canada, France — 2
  • Azerbaijan, China, Estonia, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Kenya, Russia, & Turkey — 1
https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/school-shootings-by-country
 
Plankosaurus

Plankosaurus

Spongeplank Dalepantski
Flow-Rider said:
View attachment 389965

"School shootings are a form of gun violence that involves an attack via firearms and takes place at an educational institution, such as a primary school, secondary school, or university. While many school shootings are resolved with zero fatalities, many others result in gun-related deaths, and some are also considered mass shootings because of the number of people injured or killed by the attack. The United States has endured hundreds more school shootings than any other country in recent years."

19 Countries with the Most School Shootings (total incidents Jan 2009-May 2018 - CNN):
  • United States — 288
  • Mexico — 8
  • South Africa — 6
  • India — 5
  • Nigeria & Pakistan — 4
  • Afghanistan — 3
  • Brazil, Canada, France — 2
  • Azerbaijan, China, Estonia, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Kenya, Russia, & Turkey — 1
https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/school-shootings-by-country
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Soooo, pretty close to even with the rest of the world then

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pink poodle

pink poodle

気が狂っている男
Is there some common reason that the adult perpetrators of these shootings decide to go and shoot up schools full of children? I can kind of comprehend why a school student might go to their school and shoot it up (enemies, revenge, bullies, heartbreak, teachers, and so on perhaps?), but adults?
 
Squidfayce

Squidfayce

Eats Squid
pink poodle said:
Is there some common reason that the adult perpetrators of these shootings decide to go and shoot up schools full of children? I can kind of comprehend why a school student might go to their school and shoot it up (enemies, revenge, bullies, heartbreak, teachers, and so on perhaps?), but adults?
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The most recent one in texas, the "adult" in question had just turned 18 and had a history of being bullied at school i read. Dunno if it was his school, but he may have had some contempt for the system and/or kids in general.

as to other adults i cant say. I can imagine multiple reasons. Contempt for the school system, an estranged parent taking out their separation from their child on other parents, Maximum exposure/impact. I mean they are so prevalent and televised widely, there's probably some aspect of that exposure that has to play a part like some cyclical doom spiral. in the end, its a mental health issue. Only mental people do this. So from that aspect I understand the NRA's position of "guns dont kill people, people kill people", but to that effect they should be 100% behind tighter gun control, otherwise IMO theyre supportive o fnot just guns, but people who kill people.
 
Stredda

Stredda

Runs naked through virgin scrub
Squidfayce said:
The most recent one in texas, the "adult" in question had just turned 18 and had a history of being bullied at school i read. Dunno if it was his school, but he may have had some contempt for the system and/or kids in general.

as to other adults i cant say. I can imagine multiple reasons. Contempt for the school system, an estranged parent taking out their separation from their child on other parents, Maximum exposure/impact. I mean they are so prevalent and televised widely, there's probably some aspect of that exposure that has to play a part like some cyclical doom spiral. in the end, its a mental health issue. Only mental people do this. So from that aspect I understand the NRA's position of "guns dont kill people, people kill people", but to that effect they should be 100% behind tighter gun control, otherwise IMO theyre supportive o fnot just guns, but people who kill people.
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I just see it as crazy that the solutions from Ted Cruz is “One of the things that everyone agreed is don’t have all of these unlocked back doors. Have one door into and out of the school and have ... armed police officers at that door,”
So the schools become like a jail? I think some of the progun US politicians and NRA members need to go to some other countries and see how the real world live. That is not normal, but I think they just shrug their shoulders and say "what else can we do". :rolleyes:"
 
PJO

PJO

in me vL comy
Stredda said:
I just see it as crazy that the solutions from Ted Cruz is “One of the things that everyone agreed is don’t have all of these unlocked back doors. Have one door into and out of the school and have ... armed police officers at that door,”
So the schools become like a jail? I think some of the progun US politicians and NRA members need to go to some other countries and see how the real world live. That is not normal, but I think they just shrug their shoulders and say "what else can we do". :rolleyes:"
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They couldn't give a fuck how the rest of the world lives, America is the greatest country on Earth, no one could be doing anything better than what they are already.
As far as they're concerned fear is good, it brings with it a more compliant populace so they can just go on making more money and getting more kickbacks.
 
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