Russia Vs. America; Here we go again kids!

johnny

johnny

I'll tells ya!
Staff member
Litenbror said:
Just deleted what I was writing to read this before posting anything else.

Yes my points are too cut and dry, nuance doesn't convey well in short forum posts. I much prefer to have these discussions with a beer in hand and hours to kill.

Everything you have said is right and though @Squidfayce doesn't agree it's what I have been trying to convey. I must not be communicating it as well as I would like.

What I have been trying to say in a nut shell is yes Russia and China are authoritarian regimes that do atrocious things to their people and other countries.

One of the points I have been trying to unsuccessfully make is that we have, to a point, undermined ourselves with our foreign policy by misusing international institutions such as the WTO. I have been trying to identify that this isn't a completely one way street. The diminishing of the international institutions the West put in place has helped the rise of these states.

There is nothing we can do? That's not correct, all of the corporation's that do business in China that are listed in Western stock exchanges can be regulated by Western governments. Requiring supply chain transparency and not allowing companies to do business unless it's verified under the modern slavery conventions would quickly have results but would also cost a lot of MONEY. For all of our arguments this is why we don't do anything, it will cost a lot of money and people in power will probably lose their positions.

last post on this for me because this is a topic for drinking beer because we are so fortunate to live in such a free country with such luxury, not for back and forth on a MTB forum.
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I don't have any serious disagreements with the above - I also agree that not having our own house in order is unhelpful in the greater scheme of things.
 
Squidfayce

Squidfayce

Eats Squid
Calvin27 said:
Pretty much comes down to giving Ukraine promises they didn't keep and now leaving them hanging.
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POland has provided Ammo, MANPADs, light mortars, reconnaissance UAVs and other types of defensive weapons, believed to have sent portable GROM anti-aircraft missiles too.
Chech rep has provided thousands of rounds of artillery ammo.
Latvia and Lithuania are to provide stinger anti-aircraft missiles and related equipment.
Estonia expected to donate Javelin anti-tank missiles.
Germany has provided helmets (lol).
Spain has mobilised frigates and fighter jets to the Black Sea.
Holland and Denmark have moved troops but in other NATO countries in order to deter Russia from possible attacks in those countries.
US has provided a significant amount of hardware too.
Plenty of other EU countries have provided financial aid for military use in this upcoming conflict.

Does that sound like leaving somone hanging? Its about the best that can be done without being pulle dinto a proxy war, like the US is.
 
johnny

johnny

I'll tells ya!
Staff member
Calvin27 said:
The point stands though. You cannot expect to point fingers at other countries consolidating their borders while simultanteously pretending your own history was clean as a whistle. Historically Russia has been invaded many many times and a huge part of that is the stupidly flat plain to their west border. That is the reality of the world.
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Nobody is claiming that anyone is clean as a whistle though.

But, cool, let's take your position a few steps further - because the world has an ugly past, we're not allowed to stop it from having an ugly future. Russia should re-annex the former Soviet union, because Russia's security is more important than the security of all the people living in Ukraine, Poland, Finland, Romania, Kazakhstan, etc. The powerful do what they will and the weak do what they must, etc.

So if Russia is going to do that, Central and South America shouldn't complain if the US wants to secure its southern approaches and the East Timorese shouldn't complain if we and Jakarta want to stop a socialist govt from taking over in Dili.

We're going to let history dictate the future and we're prepared to live in a world where might is right. That's the crux of what you're saying here.
 
Squidfayce

Squidfayce

Eats Squid
Litenbror said:
There is nothing we can do? That's not correct, all of the corporation's that do business in China that are listed in Western stock exchanges can be regulated by Western governments. Requiring supply chain transparency and not allowing companies to do business unless it's verified under the modern slavery conventions would quickly have results but would also cost a lot of MONEY. For all of our arguments this is why we don't do anything, it will cost a lot of money and people in power will probably lose their positions.
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Thats already happening. modern slavery laws and regulations were passed in the last couple of years locally with regulators requiring businesses to have controls in place for supply chain etc. These are in effect going to start to be formally regulated over the next few years. The wheels are turning though. It remains to be seen how effective the regulation regieme is.

remember, the chinese disagree with the global definition of all the bad things they are doing and restrict our access to validate what is happening etc. Its forseaable that various loop holes will exists to continue to trade with regeimes where we cant validate, verify or control what we get and its true origins. SO no real change to the status quo IMO is the expected outcome.
 
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johnny

johnny

I'll tells ya!
Staff member
Putin has recognised the 'breakaway republics' of Donestk and Luhansk and called for Russian peacekeeping forces to move into the region.

Reports say that that troop movement has already commenced.

Tell me again how this isn't Cold War II.
 
Haakon

Haakon

has an accommodating arse
Its all par for the course. The whole world has been on a rightwards authoritarian trajectory for quite a while now, it was only ever going to end in war. Along with all the human rights abuses, environmental destruction and subjugation of women.

Buckle up kids, its not going to get any better.
 
johnny

johnny

I'll tells ya!
Staff member
Looks like full-scale war is about to commence.

Battle formations within 5km of borders, "rulers" of occupied areas calling for support against Ukrainian aggression, supposedly giving casus belli, Moscow not returning the calls from Zelinsky, emergency decrees similar to martial law being made out of Kyiv.

So many people are about to suffer horribly.
 
johnny

johnny

I'll tells ya!
Staff member
Likely that any 5th column that Putin has will begin to reveal itself as well, with sabotage attacks and the like.
 
Asininedrivel

Asininedrivel

caviar connoisseur
Not sure I've seen a more pointless major conflict about to emerge in my lifetime, discounting the Bosnian fratricide or various African genocides.

Seemingly imminent destruction for.... what? Appeasing Putin who still seethes about the disintegration of the USSR and wants to restore some semblance of it for his own ego?
 
LPG

LPG

likes thicc birds
I've spent a fair bit of time in both countries, mainly 3 months in the middle of nowhere in Siberiaand the far east. There is so much shared between the populations that I can't imagine the people would really support this. An absolute shame that leaders have to do stupid shit like this.
 
Asininedrivel

Asininedrivel

caviar connoisseur
LPG said:
I've spent a fair bit of time in both countries, mainly 3 months in the middle of nowhere in Siberiaand the far east. There is so much shared between the populations that I can't imagine the people would really support this. An absolute shame that leaders have to do stupid shit like this.
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Yep. Smacks of the USA invading Canada.
 
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