Russia Vs. America; Here we go again kids!

[Litenbror]

Also @Squidfayce quick one I was just thinking about. The Chinese government is committing genocide on the Uyghurs is beyond argument yet we continue to buy the products produced by their forced labour. So companies publicly traded in the West are profiting from the forced labour and death of this population as well as Western populations getting cheap goods. A solid ethical question is who is worse, the Government whos abusing them or the corporations and people profiting from it. In this global world the blood goes a long way and our multinational corporations are probably worse than any government out there.

 

[Squidfayce]

Also @Squidfayce quick one I was just thinking about. The Chinese government is committing genocide on the Uyghurs is beyond argument yet we continue to buy the products produced by their forced labour. So companies publicly traded in the West are profiting from the forced labour and death of this population as well as Western populations getting cheap goods. A solid ethical question is who is worse, the Government whos abusing them or the corporations and people profiting from it. In this global world the blood goes a long way and our multinational corporations are probably worse than any government out there.

That old chestnut.

Try living a week without using products that have Chinese origins or components.

I think you'll find you're probably also profiting from this via your super.

 

[Litenbror]

That old chestnut.

Try living a week without using products that have Chinese origins or components.

I think you'll find you're probably also profiting from this via your super.

Absolutely it is something I recognise everyday. Our existence in the West is reliant on the developing world just as it has for hundreds of years. The more I read into the history of Asia and South America especially the more I understand the current situation isn't that much different than it has always been. All I'm arguing is as a society we need the self reflection to move forward otherwise we will just repeat ourselves, and it's likely going to be exploiting Africa. China and Russia are not good at all but calling them names won't change anything, only thing that can change them is if we drastically change us, which we all know won't happen.

 

[Calvin27]

Similar with the PRC - I'm gonna go with the countries that don't surveil every part of life their citizens's lives, determine what can and cannot be discussed on the Internet, doesn't run a national system of black prisons and neither holds up to a million people in re-education camps where they are tortured, sterilised and denied the freedom to worship how they choose.

Sheesh you're not leaving many countries on the table there!

We have spent the last 400 years invading, stealing and killing on almost every continent on the planet and because we have gotten a bit better in the last 50 years we expect everyone to listen to us.

Consolidating territories and then saying, ok games over folks, let's just leave it there, is equivalent to hittting a six and then taking the stumps home right after. I don't really have a solution and have no dog in the Russia/Ukraine fight. But I do observe that a lot of folks seem to observe in very narrow timeframes. If you look at a country like Russia, the short term observation is they are pricks to invading, the longer term picture is there is no way Ukraine is gonig to be at their footstep aligned to a western Euro block.

On the Ukrainian side of things, I really feel for their citizens. Previous leaders manged to straddle the line between appeasing Russia and advantages of the Euro zone. This last few years has really upset that balance and unfortunately for them Russia is upping the ante but their mates in Europe have left them for dead. Seems Euro leadership was happy to reap the economic benefits of opening up Ukraine (and possibly strategic advantages) but when push came to shove they backed out fast. Absolute dog move. They should back the crap out of Ukraine instead of crying foul.

 

[johnny]

Sheesh you're not leaving many countries on the table there!.

which other countries do you put in the same league as China?

 

[Calvin27]

which other countries do you put in the same league as China?

I meant like in terms of your criteria. The USA would be the obvious country that meets all that criteria, but as you said we're not about to go into whataboutism...

 

[johnny]

I meant like in terms of your criteria. The USA would be the obvious country that meets all that criteria, but as you said we're not about to go into whataboutism...

I don't actually understand what you mean - the US doesn't run censorship on the net like China does, it doesn't run re-education camps, sterilise women, etc. like China does, etc. etc. The US ran some black prisons during the WoT, but is now internally taking itself to task over that. Guantanamo is a huge problem, but the majority of people there are an actual threat and if you hold a public trial you divulge methods and sources. It's not a black and white issue like the persecution of the Uighurs is. Lastly, people in the US are allowed to discuss and protest these things publicly without risking being punished or being imprisoned/executed themselves.

I just don't know how anyone can justifiably make a comparison between these two counties (which, to make a point, is not the same thing as whataboutism - that's when you use the example of country A to excuse the failures of country B. That's not what's happening here, you seem to be saying that the US is similar to the PRC in the way that it conducts itself.

 

[Litenbror]

The Sacklers, Who Made Billions From OxyContin, Win Immunity From Opioid Lawsuits

The decision by a federal bankruptcy judge grants members of the family who own Purdue Pharma, maker of OxyContin, sweeping protection from any liability for the opioid crisis.

www.npr.org

Never forget you can kill as many people as you like in the US as long as you are rich and killing poor people makes you money. The Government in the US doesn't do the killing but the corporation's pick up a lot of the slack.

Not saying China and Russia aren't horrific in what they do but maybe we can agree that we have some shit to work out ourselves (our PM just told the First Nations People that sorry isn't the hardest work, I forgive you is).

This is completely off topic but it is RB so to be expected really.

 

[Squidfayce]

You do realise that there's a level of self responsibility when it comes to drugs right?

The sackler family and purdue are shady AF, but addictions don't happen overnight or progress to sticking a needle in your arm when that becomes the cheaper and more available option without passing through several toll gates yourself.

 

[johnny]

Does the Chinese supply of Fent into the US cancel those two wrongs out, or something?

 

[johnny]

. China and Russia are not good at all but calling them names won't change anything, only thing that can change them is if we drastically change us,

Changing ourselves and how we act won’t make a shred of difference as to how China and Russia conduct themselves. These things aren’t dependent on each other.

 

[Litenbror]

Changing ourselves and how we act won’t make a shred of difference as to how China and Russia conduct themselves. These things aren’t dependent on each other.

Exactly, that's what I have been saying here the whole time. The West clutching it's pearls and feigning interest in how the CCP or Russia treat their people or the neighboring countries is BS, we want stability so the money machine keeps going brrrrr.

If we honestly cared our governments would do something but they don't and that's because the populations that vote them in don't care enough to be inconvenienced.

 

[Squidfayce]

Exactly, that's what I have been saying here the whole time.

Respectfully, it's not.

China and Russia are not good at all but calling them names won't change anything, only thing that can change them is if we drastically change us

The sentiment that you've been conveying throughout is that western society could somehow influence based on perception of itself.

Bottom line. Nothing we do will change authoritarian regeimes, unless that thing we do is to bomb the fuck out of them and win. This is something we also won't do.

 

[Litenbror]

Respectfully, it's not.



The sentiment that you've been conveying throughout is that western society could somehow influence based on perception of itself.

Bottom line. Nothing we do will change authoritarian regeimes, unless that thing we do is to bomb the fuck out of them and win. This is something we also won't do.

Usually we are reasonably well aligned on our views @Squidfayce so it's interesting that here we differ.

Maybe I'm playing devils advocate too much and that has gotten people offside.

From your comments above I take it that your proposed solution to Authoritarian regimes is to "bomb the fuck out of them", so invade a sovereign territory within the Western developed international framework and install a government that is in line with our political and moral values?

The world is a shit show full of authoritarian regimes and pseudo democracies and it seems like most people are just picking there sports ball team without looking at the bigger picture. The West believes, and reinforces within itself, that it's exceptional. Our foreign policy for decades has been based off this (look at Australia's use of anti dumping at the WTO then our dumping of Aluminium to protect local industries).

What I have been trying to say and what seems to be being missed is that:

YES China Russia BAD

Is there a solution, no history tells us authoritarian is the norm not the exception.

Are we morally superior so we can just demand others do as we say?

What we can affect is looking in the mirror and seeing the we have our own prejudice and misinformation that needs to be recognised.

But hey that's hard, let's just stick with the slogans "BETTER DEAD THAN RED"

 

[Squidfayce]

i didn't propose that we do it, i just stated that's the only way they will change via western influence. i.e. never going to happen.

You haven't gotten me offside, just calling BS on the wishy washy "lets fix our selves to change the world" vibe I'm getting from these posts. It feels contrived.

In comparison to all those pseudo democracies and authoritarian regimes, we ARE exceptional. I think so many privileged people don't recognise that. Perversely, a symptom of that same privilege is that we do believe we are exceptional, the irony is not lost on me. However to me there is a fine line on that one, you can know it without being a flag wearing racist.

We don't demand anything. I think that's pretty clear. We call them out, regularly. Thats all we CAN do. So we do it. When warranted the west imposes various sanctions. Thats about the extent of pressure and influence we can exert without a war. But no one is in a position to demand. The only people getting up on soap boxes and demanding anything funnily enough is China (and sometimes NK). Its quite funny to watch because they genuinely believe they arent doing anything wrong when the standard of "wrong" is pretty much universally agreed upon. On the balance of things, its easy to demonstrate that we are morally superior to some, if not all of these regimes regardless of history or any of the current discrepancies to that morality we may have. To suggest otherwise is to fall back into that privelage trap.

 

[johnny]

Usually we are reasonably well aligned on our views @Squidfayce so it's interesting that here we differ.

Maybe I'm playing devils advocate too much and that has gotten people offside.

From your comments above I take it that your proposed solution to Authoritarian regimes is to "bomb the fuck out of them", so invade a sovereign territory within the Western developed international framework and install a government that is in line with our political and moral values?

The world is a shit show full of authoritarian regimes and pseudo democracies and it seems like most people are just picking there sports ball team without looking at the bigger picture. The West believes, and reinforces within itself, that it's exceptional. Our foreign policy for decades has been based off this (look at Australia's use of anti dumping at the WTO then our dumping of Aluminium to protect local industries).

What I have been trying to say and what seems to be being missed is that:

YES China Russia BAD

Is there a solution, no history tells us authoritarian is the norm not the exception.

Are we morally superior so we can just demand others do as we say?

What we can affect is looking in the mirror and seeing the we have our own prejudice and misinformation that needs to be recognised.

But hey that's hard, let's just stick with the slogans "BETTER DEAD THAN RED"

I think your position is a little to cut and dry and doesn't recognise the true nature of democracies and the nuance (There's that word...) that exists in the way we can and do approach foreign policy.

My comment above was to argue that it doesn't matter whether we, in 'the West' are angels or arseholes, China and Russia are gonna China and Russia. But that's not the same as saying "it doesn't matter what our foreign policy is, China and Russian gonna China and Russia'. Secondly, there is a lot more that can and is done that doesn't amount to 'bomb the fuck out of them'. Obviously, there is diplomacy, economic pressure, soft power, support of civic society in those countries, etc. etc.

Of course governments in liberal democracies are sociopathic, as are most commercial interests in a capitalist system. But that does not imply that the demos is without power - ethical investing, elections, lobby groups, pressure groups (Get Up, Sleeping Giants, even organisations like where I work) have political power and influence policy. The old saying that the price of freedom is eternal vigilance isn't only referring to our own freedom, but that of people outside our own borders.

There's nothing to say that we can't chew gum and walk at the same time. There are enough people and a plurality of interests in our democractic countries that we can pressure for improvement at home and abroad at the same time, particularly when it comes to industrial level human rights abuses like that which is occurring in Xinjiang today, or potential war like in Ukraine.

 

[Calvin27]

Changing ourselves and how we act won’t make a shred of difference as to how China and Russia conduct themselves. These things aren’t dependent on each other.

Spend decades warring for profits and then consolidate your territories and wealth then go and point fingers at other countries? If Germany had to pay repatriations for world wars, I don't see why this isn't possible for other countries engaging in foreign wars. if western countries want to take the moral high ground, they should demonstrate a willingness to make good not just say, yeah that was the past stop whataboutisming etc.

Also we are comparing Russia with Ukraine at it's doorstep with something like USA going to fight a war in a country literally on the other side of the world. Like I said though this is mostly the fault of the EU. Pretty much comes down to giving Ukraine promises they didn't keep and now leaving them hanging.

 

[johnny]

Spend decades warring for profits and then consolidate your territories and wealth then go and point fingers at other countries? If Germany had to pay repatriations for world wars, I don't see why this isn't possible for other countries engaging in foreign wars. if western countries want to take the moral high ground, they should demonstrate a willingness to make good not just say, yeah that was the past stop whataboutisming etc.

The fact that you base your thinking on what countries 'should' do, because morals and ethical standards, etc., leads me to think you have a loose grasp on the realities that govern the world.

 

[Litenbror]

I think your position is a little to cut and dry and doesn't recognise the true nature of democracies and the nuance (There's that word...) that exists in the way we can and do approach foreign policy.

My comment above was to argue that it doesn't matter whether we, in 'the West' are angels or arseholes, China and Russia are gonna China and Russia. But that's not the same as saying "it doesn't matter what our foreign policy is, China and Russian gonna China and Russia'. Secondly, there is a lot more that can and is done that doesn't amount to 'bomb the fuck out of them'. Obviously, there is diplomacy, economic pressure, soft power, support of civic society in those countries, etc. etc.

Of course governments in liberal democracies are sociopathic, as are most commercial interests in a capitalist system. But that does not imply that the demos is without power - ethical investing, elections, lobby groups, pressure groups (Get Up, Sleeping Giants, even organisations like where I work) have political power and influence policy. The old saying that the price of freedom is eternal vigilance isn't only referring to our own freedom, but that of people outside our own borders.

There's nothing to say that we can't chew gum and walk at the same time. There are enough people and a plurality of interests in our democractic countries that we can pressure for improvement at home and abroad at the same time, particularly when it comes to industrial level human rights abuses like that which is occurring in Xinjiang today, or potential war like in Ukraine.

Just deleted what I was writing to read this before posting anything else.

Yes my points are too cut and dry, nuance doesn't convey well in short forum posts. I much prefer to have these discussions with a beer in hand and hours to kill.

Everything you have said is right and though @Squidfayce doesn't agree it's what I have been trying to convey. I must not be communicating it as well as I would like.

What I have been trying to say in a nut shell is yes Russia and China are authoritarian regimes that do atrocious things to their people and other countries.

One of the points I have been trying to unsuccessfully make is that we have, to a point, undermined ourselves with our foreign policy by misusing international institutions such as the WTO. I have been trying to identify that this isn't a completely one way street. The diminishing of the international institutions the West put in place has helped the rise of these states.

There is nothing we can do? That's not correct, all of the corporation's that do business in China that are listed in Western stock exchanges can be regulated by Western governments. Requiring supply chain transparency and not allowing companies to do business unless it's verified under the modern slavery conventions would quickly have results but would also cost a lot of MONEY. For all of our arguments this is why we don't do anything, it will cost a lot of money and people in power will probably lose their positions.

last post on this for me because this is a topic for drinking beer because we are so fortunate to live in such a free country with such luxury, not for back and forth on a MTB forum.

 

[Calvin27]

The fact that you base your thinking on what countries 'should' do, because morals and ethical standards, etc., leads me to think you have a loose grasp on the realities that govern the world.

The point stands though. You cannot expect to point fingers at other countries consolidating their borders while simultanteously pretending your own history was clean as a whistle. Historically Russia has been invaded many many times and a huge part of that is the stupidly flat plain to their west border. That is the reality of the world.