Electric Vehicles etc

[Ackland]

I'm sure that this has probably been discussed/argued ad infinitum but my 2c

As the kinda family who don't buy into "new car" bollocks and purchase our cars ~3-5YO with cash and hold them for 10 or so years, I still can't make EV's stack up.
$46K for a "cheap" EV that will be dead in 10 years isn't sustainable.
There needs to be more invested into battery refurb/recycle programs to enable EV's to be viable for 20+ years as per ICE vehicles.

We also ran the numbers on charging one at home (somewhere between 30-50kWh from empty), from grid power (night when the car is home) and the cost is pretty exxy vs fuel (even at $2+/L).

Until there's appropriate battery infrastructure (including good value home storage for PV cells - again 10y life span with a 7-9y pay off) and much better grid tech, EV's will be impractical for many uses.

Yep we will totally get an EV as a runabout at some point in the nearish future, but only of we can get a SH model for <$25K with at least 5y left on the battery warranty

*Edit. We have a 6kW system on the roof and routinely feed upwards of 30kWh back into the grid at this time of year and even with a $18K 10kWh home battery, this wouldn't fully charge an EV if you happened to nick away camping for a weekend without access to charging infrastructure

 

[Tubbsy]

We also ran the numbers on charging one at home, from grid power and the cost is pretty exxy vs fuel (even at $2+/L).

I thought this was one of the areas that EVs did well at? Assuming you're charging off-peak (which makes sense), according to many things I've read it should cost substantially less.

Multiplying the price-per-kWh (in this case 29.3 cents or $0.293 per kWh) by battery size (55kWh for the Tesla) means it presently costs just $16.12 to charge a Model 3 SR+ from empty to full at home in WA.

The Model 3 SR+’s cost per charge plummets to just over $8.30 at household off-peak rates, or as much as $30.14 at the current maximum smart meter rate of 58.4 cents in WA.

How does this compare to a comparably powered premium ICE rival, such as a Mercedes-Benz CLA 250 4Matic? Filling the latter’s 51-litre fuel tank with the recommended 95 RON premium unleaded petrol at $1.55 per litre means it would cost $79.05 to fill.

That’s quite a contrast, and even though the Tesla offers an official 448km range on the World Harmonised Light Vehicle Testing Procedure (WLTP) compared to 761km between refills for the Mercedes, the Model 3 still comes out as being much cheaper to 'fuel’.

Do the EV owners on here find these kinds of calculations reasonably accurate? Also lol at the $1.55/l, article obviously a bit outdated.



Source:

How Much Does it Cost to Charge an Electric Car? | RAC WA

Many variables determine what it costs to charge an electric car including the size of the car's battery and the cost of the electricity you're using.

rac.com.au

 

[Ackland]

I thought this was one of the areas that EVs did well at? Assuming you're charging off-peak (which makes sense), according to many things I've read it should cost substantially less.

Do the EV owners on here find these kinds of calculations reasonably accurate? Also lol at the $1.55/l, article obviously a bit outdated.

Source:

How Much Does it Cost to Charge an Electric Car? | RAC WA

Many variables determine what it costs to charge an electric car including the size of the car's battery and the cost of the electricity you're using.

rac.com.au

At our local rates (SA) it would be about $14 to charge 50kWh (BYD atto).
Cars such as the BYD claim a range of 350km using whatever metric is allowed.
Real world testing suggests the range is closer to 230-290km or approx 4-6c/km

Our Skodas (his and hers matching pair) run at 6L/100km (current avg for our driving) and run a 50L tank for a real world range of 833km or approx 24c/km

We drive (combined) about 15,000km pa
$3600pa ICE ($2L)
$900pa EV (Assuming power stays at 27c/kWh)

Let's say we buy a BYD atto new (because 2nd hand ev's aren't really around much) and another 2019 Octavia for the $25K that we bought the last one.

Price parity occurs somewhere in the 8th yr, at which point an 8YO EV is worth almost nil but the ICE vehicle is probably still worth $5K as a trade

Rinse and repeat

FWIW this is actually closer in cost comparison than the last time that I undertook this exercise and I am pleasantly surprised

 

[Tubbsy]

Ah ok, I thought you weren't including the purchase price the way you phrased it.

 

[Ackland]

Lets also not negate that there is no EV equiv to the Octavia wagon for boot space.

I think there was mention of a Skoda EV wagon but it's not coming to Aus (surprise surprise) was we're still the dumping ground for old tech

 

[Oddjob]

Lets also not negate that there is no EV equiv to the Octavia wagon for boot space.

I think there was mention of a Skoda EV wagon but it's not coming to Aus (surprise surprise) was we're still the dumping ground for old tech

Ioniq 5 would have a bigger boot I would guess. It's a surprisingly big car, but also pricey.

Sent from my M2012K11AG using Tapatalk

 

[Tubbsy]

Lets also not negate that there is no EV equiv to the Octavia wagon for boot space.

Yeah, I'm after a large wagon too when the time comes for an EV. Currently have a Skoda Superb-sized wagon, and would like that size again.

Electrician has added bigger cable for EV charger to our current reno, so will be prepared when the time comes:

 

[Ackland]

Ioniq 5 would have a bigger boot I would guess. It's a surprisingly big car, but also pricey.

527L / 1587L... Rookie numbers

640L / 1718L and room to carry 3m Marquee and 2x bikes to an event is what I need

 

[ozzybmx]

Zero FBT, reduces my taxable by about $12k a year, no rego for 3 yrs and no diesel/petrol cost with servicing at 20,000km.
Charge at home with my 50% electricity discount or leave my big diesel suckling cruiser at home once a week and charge it for free at work.
Wouldn't work for me as a car but will certainly work for my missus.

$46K for a "cheap" EV that will be dead in 10 years isn't sustainable.

Have you looked into the BYD Blade battery ? We'll see how much they are worth in 3-5yrs, might even sell you it in 3yrs

 

[Scotty T]

$46K for a "cheap" EV that will be dead in 10 years isn't sustainable.

That's an absolute myth. No deader than ICE. 10-30% less range than it had to begin with depending on conditions over the time, but the ICE will also be less efficient after 10 years wear and tear, and have needed lots of things like timing belts and so on which the EV will never need. Your math is completely flawed if you are concluding that in ten years an EV would be worth nothing and have a "dead" battery therefore the ICE is much better value. It's just not the case anymore, maybe with Gen 1 Leaf, which caused the myth about battery life but not now, that shit was over 10 years ago and is long gone. Also, petrol won't stay at $2 for 10 years. I think it would be conservative to predict $3 within 5 years.

Then in ten years from now the battery replacement market will be huge, if you need that lost range back, it will be reasonable cost to replace/refurb/recycle the pack. Again, the myth where the one dealer in the world quoted almost the price of the car to replace the pack is just that, yet everybody thinks that's gonna happen with every EV.

Not to mention the 60% more emissions from the ICE over life cycle, but they don't come into the money equation for some reason, it's like we expect it not to cost us anything to lower emissions?

Lack of models is our third world emissions laws. You'd have a number of wagens to choose from if we fixed that. @ozzybmx is proof that policy works, and that we're getting closer to cost parity or even EV's cheaper over the whole life cycle.

 

[Mattyp]

When I realised that engine noise is the sound of waste, it now has the opposite effect on me that it has on you. It's the sound of stupidity to me.

Brap braps are not stupid, you are stupid.

I love wankel Brap brap brap… Rx7 sound

youtube.com

 

[Scotty T]

Brap braps are not stupid, you are stupid.

Sounds like my arse after pizza and too many Coopers

Here's the motor that's going in my conversion, most of the noise is the dyno:

 

[downunderdallas]

At our local rates (SA) it would be about $14 to charge 50kWh (BYD atto).
Cars such as the BYD claim a range of 350km using whatever metric is allowed.
Real world testing suggests the range is closer to 230-290km or approx 4-6c/km

Our Skodas (his and hers matching pair) run at 6L/100km (current avg for our driving) and run a 50L tank for a real world range of 833km or approx 24c/km

We drive (combined) about 15,000km pa
$3600pa ICE ($2L)
$900pa EV (Assuming power stays at 27c/kWh)

Let's say we buy a BYD atto new (because 2nd hand ev's aren't really around much) and another 2019 Octavia for the $25K that we bought the last one.

Price parity occurs somewhere in the 8th yr, at which point an 8YO EV is worth almost nil but the ICE vehicle is probably still worth $5K as a trade

Rinse and repeat

FWIW this is actually closer in cost comparison than the last time that I undertook this exercise and I am pleasantly surprised

You have solar yes? I am assuming you don't use most of it on weekends at least and if it is a second car then maybe other days too. Then fuel = FIT for me that = 7c kw/h in WA you can get a Midday saver plan that is 8c/kwh during the day so even if you don't have solar you can charge for cheap. I do a bit less than 15,000km, but I charge very largely on weekends.

I fully anticipate your BYD (should you buy one) including the battery would last at least 20 years. Tesla's LFP battery has been tested to something like 12,000 cycles which is a truly ludicrous number of km. BYD makes good batteries as far as I know so should last similar period of time/cycles, i.e. battery would far outlast the car. Even the old tech in our Nissan leaf is holding up very well, again should last 20 years +

We have two EV's our power bill has gone up definitely but we use an extra circa $200 every 2 months for a combined total of 25,000km ish per annum both of us work full time and the wife is less conscious of charging from solar, she often charges at full freight (27c)

You are 100% right about the lack of a decent EV wagon - there are zero available here and almost none globally, hopefully they'll arrive at some point and not everything will be an SUV!

 

[tubby74]

The Model 3 corners a lot better than a lot of the sports model ICE cars out there because torque vectoring.

I'd vote against that. I traded an Audi a5 soft top with sline suspension for a model 3 rwd. Anything more than gentle curves and you can't escape the weight issue, and my last car was not a lightweight. I see a goof potential to lose maybe 1/3 the range, a goof chunk of the weight and bow you could have a hatch with that always there torque that would be a f$>ing hoot to drive. 250km range, I don't think I've gone beyond that yet. Even headed to Albury the superchargers were every 200km so it could work all around if not for the range anxiety that isn't always justified.

At 6 seconds my car isn't fast off the line but when driving in a spirited fashion around bends it's like being always in the right gear at the right rpm. It just can't corner that well. Let the BEV market mature beyond selling because its electric and we'll see some seriously fun options. I saw an article that the mx5 will be EV or hybrid. That could make any gear grinding numpty look good.

 

[downunderdallas]

I'd vote against that. I traded an Audi a5 soft top with sline suspension for a model 3 rwd. Anything more than gentle curves and you can't escape the weight issue, and my last car was not a lightweight. I see a goof potential to lose maybe 1/3 the range, a goof chunk of the weight and bow you could have a hatch with that always there torque that would be a f$>ing hoot to drive. 250km range, I don't think I've gone beyond that yet. Even headed to Albury the superchargers were every 200km so it could work all around if not for the range anxiety that isn't always justified.

At 6 seconds my car isn't fast off the line but when driving in a spirited fashion around bends it's like being always in the right gear at the right rpm. It just can't corner that well. Let the BEV market mature beyond selling because its electric and we'll see some seriously fun options. I saw an article that the mx5 will be EV or hybrid. That could make any gear grinding numpty look good.

I tend to agree you can feel the weight I think with better suspension it would corner better. I'm sure the Audi has that but even still it is too heavy to be great. Mine is a bit older with a slightly smaller battery and a bit more power, glad I have that 2021 SR+

 

[Scotty T]

I'd vote against that.

I tend to agree you can feel the weight I think with better suspension it would corner better. I'm sure the Audi has that but even still it is too heavy to be great. Mine is a bit older with a slightly smaller battery and a bit more power, glad I have that 2021 SR+

Fair enough, I noticed the weight driving a 2019 SR+ but it certainly handled better than my bog stock basic Golf, and I'd expect Audi S-Line suspension to be a fair bit better than stock Tesla. Still only matters to 10% of people

 

[Squidfayce]

the future is hydrogen unicycles. you guys just aren't there yet.

 

[Haakon]

I tend to agree you can feel the weight I think with better suspension it would corner better. I'm sure the Audi has that but even still it is too heavy to be great. Mine is a bit older with a slightly smaller battery and a bit more power, glad I have that 2021 SR+

I’ve only ever driven one once, but I did find some twisties and I was quite impressed with how chuckable it is. The instant go at any time sure helps, but I thought body control and steering response was way better than I expected. Hides it’s mass well.

 

[Scotty T]

I’ve only ever driven one once, but I did find some twisties and I was quite impressed with how chuckable it is. The instant go at any time sure helps, but I thought body control and steering response was way better than I expected. Hides it’s mass well.

Corners hard enough to go beyond my comfort zone. Rev heads who convert to electric often say it's like being in a petrol car which has the perfect gear and the perfect RPM and the turbo spooled at all times, ie. not a petrol car

 

[Scotty T]

the future is hydrogen unicycles. you guys just aren't there yet.

Old hat, fusion reactor skateboards my man, invest now!