People trying to convert us to various alternative lifestyles

[moorey]

I know what you mean, he does know a lot Ha Ha

Except the people that have done all the acctual testing in the gym and know what works, It is known for its estregon affects by everyone who uses it, even the health benefit advocates that use it for manapuase. No debate! Mood swings and boobs.

Off topic, but 'tests' have proven that ghosts are real, powerbands work, god exists, Feng Shui is effective.......Anecdote does NOT equal evidence, Laddergoat:very_drunk:

 

[driftking]

I know what you mean, he does know a lot Ha Ha

Except the people that have done all the acctual testing in the gym and know what works, It is known for its estregon affects by everyone who uses it, even the health benefit advocates that use it for manapuase. No debate! Mood swings and boobs.

There is also evidence that suggests you don't need tonnes of protein to build muscle, I have no doubt you could easily get enough protein for muscle building. Your diet could easily off set the estrogen anyway.
I have read anything between 1.2-2 times your body weight in LBS I have also ready 1.5-2 x body weight in kg. studies suggest that only 20grams post work out of protein is enough. Soy is proven to increase estrogen so it has negative effects depending on what your goals are. What works in the gym is a balanced diet, accurate meal timing and a proper training and recovery schedule. Some people can gain muscle with a higher carb diet and lower protein while other need higher protein and less carbs. Further more fats, some people need very low fat, others can eat higher fat levels and not gain fat.

At the end of the day while science can prove how individual chemicals and compounds work, when we apply it to our bodies each person's body works and reacts differently to types of diet. The key is finding what works for you. Also if we look at majority of major foods they all have some sort of negative effect depending on our goals and how much we use.

James from bike james knows a lot, while i follow and read his articles it also appears that at the same time he is still in the process of constant learning and can be somewhat of a forum with basic levels of evidence. While I agree with plenty and most of his articles it doesn't rule out that he can be wrong on a subject.

Not a convenient stand, an impartial stand. I just don't believe either side of the arguement just because someone on the interweb says it so.
I have nothing against proteins and supplements, I just have no use for them, laddergoat.

I will say it is impossible to say you have no need for protein we nee protein, but the levels of protein and amount will vary, I am assuming that your statement is in regards to extra or excessive levels of protein. I.e you only need what you get from your vegan diet.

There are studies that say chocolate milk is just as effective as a whey protein shake after work out so I have to agree if you don't have the need than why conform to "what science says" do what works.
People need to stop looking at foods as they are, I find it interesting when people refer to meats as proteins, when in fact there are plenty of vegan and non meat meals that are high in protein. Too many stereotypes without any real knowledge of the food.

 

[ajay]

There is also evidence that suggests you don't need tonnes of protein to build muscle, I have no doubt you could easily get enough protein for muscle building. Your diet could easily off set the estrogen anyway.
I have read anything between 1.2-2 times your body weight in LBS I have also ready 1.5-2 x body weight in kg. studies suggest that only 20grams post work out of protein is enough. Soy is proven to increase estrogen so it has negative effects depending on what your goals are. What works in the gym is a balanced diet, accurate meal timing and a proper training and recovery schedule. Some people can gain muscle with a higher carb diet and lower protein while other need higher protein and less carbs. Further more fats, some people need very low fat, others can eat higher fat levels and not gain fat.

At the end of the day while science can prove how individual chemicals and compounds work, when we apply it to our bodies each person's body works and reacts differently to types of diet. The key is finding what works for you. Also if we look at majority of major foods they all have some sort of negative effect depending on our goals and how much we use.

James from bike james knows a lot, while i follow and read his articles it also appears that at the same time he is still in the process of constant learning and can be somewhat of a forum with basic levels of evidence. While I agree with plenty and most of his articles it doesn't rule out that he can be wrong on a subject.


I will say it is impossible to say you have no need for protein we nee protein, but the levels of protein and amount will vary, I am assuming that your statement is in regards to extra or excessive levels of protein. I.e you only need what you get from your vegan diet.

There are studies that say chocolate milk is just as effective as a whey protein shake after work out so I have to agree if you don't have the need than why conform to "what science says" do what works.
People need to stop looking at foods as they are, I find it interesting when people refer to meats as proteins, when in fact there are plenty of vegan and non meat meals that are high in protein. Too many stereotypes without any real knowledge of the food.

Check out a race horse, check out their diet (grain). Im not sure how similarly we process foods, but they certainly don't need it muscle up!

 

[vtwiz]

Check out a race horse, check out their diet (grain). Im not sure how similarly we process foods, but they certainly don't need it muscle up!

Yeah, and Koalas can live on a diet of gum leaves. Whats you point? Horses and people are different. Not only that, but do a little research into what race horses are fed and you will find that there IS protein added to the grain.

I have a protein shake after a ride and at the moment, that is once a week. I'm not doing it in excess or to bulk up like a body builder so don't think its doing any harm.

 

[mtb_ts]

Whatever floats their boat. Its one of the popular fads that gets taken up by bored rich housewives or bored college students from privileged backgrounds, or the adherents of certain religions. (most times I've come across it that is)
Soy-based meat and dairy substitutes (including fake-meat) contain a number of chemicals, food additives and mineral salts added to them. Despite this, propronents of veganism claim it to be healthier even though their "food" is not wholly natural its manufactured.

 

[No Skid Marks]

What about Gorillas?
​Just stirring the pot.

 

[vtwiz]

What about Gorillas?
​Just stirring the pot.

I love a good gorilla suit.

 

[driftking]

Check out a race horse, check out their diet (grain). Im not sure how similarly we process foods, but they certainly don't need it muscle up!

Yeah, and Koalas can live on a diet of gum leaves. Whats you point? Horses and people are different. Not only that, but do a little research into what race horses are fed and you will find that there IS protein added to the grain.

I have a protein shake after a ride and at the moment, that is once a week. I'm not doing it in excess or to bulk up like a body builder so don't think its doing any harm.

I could also say cats have a high protein diet and we all know they are agile and have 9lives.....maybe we should all eat like cats haha

As vtwiz said we are not horses we need a different diet and our bodies respond in a different way to that of an animal, obviously. Again as I have have pointed out there are still variations in diets between people and their ratio of F:C.

While we all have different diets ie vegan, vegetarian, organic etc bottom line it comes down the nutrients, macro nutrients and amino acids etc in the foods and individual needs (preservatives/crap are also concern, but that complicates stuff). Grain still have protein in them while given lower eg a serve of brown rice has about 8grams of protein, if we mix this with the right foods you can easily get 15 grams of protein and a full range of amino acids. Another eg wheat germ is something line 1gram protein to 2.5g carbs. ie 40grams protien to 100grams of carbs Even a grain based diet can give you plenty of protein, although the ratio to carb's will be small there is still plenty of protein. For someone like a xc racer they will have a massive carb diet primarily as their training will drain carbs so they need it. You need to match your eating with your needs and what works not what everyone else says should work. I don't want to get in to it but carb's also have a negative affect on GH production, which is why many bodybuilders steer away from them before bed as GH peaks.

Disclaimer: I am not trained or qualified in this area at all and all information is from personal research therefore anything above should just be taken as my point of view and my personal understanding, it may or may not be correct.

 

[Norco Maniac]

It is known for its estregon affects by everyone who uses it, even the health benefit advocates that use it for manapuase. No debate! Mood swings and boobs.

"manapause" ??

there's also a lot of spurious arguments that soy causes breast cancer.


on the subject of protein shakes, i've found a chickpea protein powder that doesn't seem to give me the windy sound effects that soy and whey do. apparently is's also Vegan and acceptable for those on Halal dietary requirements.

 

[Trigger02]

"manapause" ??

there's also a lot of spurious arguments that soy causes breast cancer.


on the subject of protein shakes, i've found a chickpea protein powder that doesn't seem to give me the windy sound effects that soy and whey do. apparently is's also Vegan and acceptable for those on Halal dietary requirements.

Yes, and beans are also a very good form of protein, I would prefer to have it naturually but sometimes i am too busy.. Milk on it's own is great to a certain extent, It does not really bulk too well. Ie overloading on carbs/whey for growth.

 

[Trigger02]

Off topic, but 'tests' have proven that ghosts are real, powerbands work, god exists, Feng Shui is effective.......Anecdote does NOT equal evidence, Laddergoat:very_drunk:

I suppose science and overall results is all that matter, God and shit?? I have never seen anyone massive at the Gym from taking soy... So that means Ghosts exsist Ha ha ha... Snap out of it!

 

[workmx]

I suppose science and overall results is all that matter, God and shit?? I have never seen anyone massive at the Gym from taking soy... So that means Ghosts exsist Ha ha ha... Snap out of it!

Think you missed the last bit of the quote.

Read it again... think about it carefully before you post again.

And being verbose does not mean you are correct.

Anecdote does NOT equal evidence.

 

[Trigger02]

Think you missed the last bit of the quote.

Read it again... think about it carefully before you post again.

And being verbose does not mean you are correct.

Oh shit sorry mate, I thought he was saying, proving soy protein is bad for you is like trying prove that ghosts exist.. My bad.

 

[workmx]

Struck out on all counts again, huh?

 

[LQQK]

Just to be a pedant the quote is "The plural of anecdote is not data." (Roger Brinner)

 

[workmx]

Nice one.

This thread is a good lesson in the hazards of fallacy and faulty logic.

 

[Trigger02]

You guys complete me

 

[vtwiz]

Yeah, You dont see us trying to convert you vego's into meat eating, beer drinking, Homo bashing, Blue singlet wearing, Dessert boot stomping, oil spilling, Animal exterminating ways of ours do you?? Try being vego in Long bay.. You get more than 1 meat in there.. Ha Ha Jokes...... :distrust:

No your not trying to convert vego's into eating meat but you are trying to convert me into not eating soy protein. Why do you care what I eat.

Except the people that have done all the acctual testing in the gym and know what works

I've done my own 'actual testing' and have found that most beef cakes at the gym are what I would describe as being well, 'not very clever' so would take their test with a pinch of salt. Disclaimer: my 'actual tests' are completely un scientific.

I suppose science and overall results is all that matter, God and shit?? I have never seen anyone massive at the Gym from taking soy... So that means Ghosts exsist Ha ha ha... Snap out of it!

We are not talking about getting massive as I have stated numerous times. Also, just because the guys YOU KNOW arent getting massive doesnt make it bad you as you are trying to suggest. Again, getting home after a three hour night ride, I really can't be arsed cooking up a steak. I'VE found the soy protein a a good post ride alternative. Use milk whey protein if you prefer, meat is not the only option.

 

[Trigger02]

I dont care! Soy protein is in the same boat as smokes were with brittish tobacco and so on.. All the positive scientific evidence is from companies that are very close to sanitarium (the people that market and sell the crap) I dont even care if you smoke. :very_drunk:

 

[moorey]

I dont care! Soy protein is in the same boat as smokes were with brittish tobacco and so on.. All the positive scientific evidence is from companies that are very close to sanitarium (the people that market and sell the crap) I dont even care if you smoke. :very_drunk:

Sweeping statement there, laddergoat.

ALL the positive scientific evidence

I don't plan to try to disprove your statement, so I'll let it slide with healthy skepticism.
You know what? I've not read any of the evidence either way, and if i did, it wouldn't necessarily mean a thing to me. Evidence that a meat/dairy diet is better for me isn't going to convince me to eat it, any more than 'evidence' on some alleged dangers of soy protien. Remember, I take NO suppliments of any kind, and try to rely on a balanced diet, which at times means a bit more work and consideration of what I eat, but not as much as you would think.
I don't choose to be vegan for health reasons, I choose it because I oppose the killing and mistreatment of 'animals' (in all their forms), and can live a perfectly healtly life without supporting the industry I oppose, with a clear conscience (look up 'cognitive dissonance').
I'm a pretty science minded guy, but I don't approach my diet scientifically. I don't blindly ignore advice that a vegan diet presents possible health risks, instead, I try to counter those risks.
Something will eventually kill me, maybe sooner than an omnivore diet would, maybe later. I choose to live in a way that makes me happy and content. Not better, not worse, just different that most. 'Bulking up' is the last thing from my mind, but then, i'm and old man now. Soy protien may or may not be the best choice of poison for bodybuilders...meh, you do what works for you.
I rode XC/trails from 5.30-8.30am this morning, had a shower then rode to work 15kms. I couldn't do that on my diet (or any diet), without putting good fuel in the tank. I'm fitter now than I was 20 years ago, but only because I exercise more and eat more sensibly (arguably) than I did 20 years ago, not because I'm a vegan. I only try to stay healthy and fit enough to enjoy my riding, and keep up with my kids as they grow up....and so far, i'm right on track with that goal :very_drunk: