Who Causes Cyclists' Deaths?
- Thread starter davemw
- Start date
fairy1
Banned
Ok this aimed straight at the roadies, if you want to play Toue de France at 6a.m. on a Sunday don't yell at the top of your voice.
Some of the roadies in Newcastle feel the need to have a conversation with the farthest rider in the pack. Fair enough have a whole lane but please shut the hell up if it's early in the morning, a pack of yelling roadies is bloody loud in a built up area.
Also I see loads of people at my local trail ride around in circles on a two way road trying to sort their bike out before a ride. How these tards don't get hit is beyond me, it seems some car drivers do keep an eye out for these special people.
Some of the roadies in Newcastle feel the need to have a conversation with the farthest rider in the pack. Fair enough have a whole lane but please shut the hell up if it's early in the morning, a pack of yelling roadies is bloody loud in a built up area.
Also I see loads of people at my local trail ride around in circles on a two way road trying to sort their bike out before a ride. How these tards don't get hit is beyond me, it seems some car drivers do keep an eye out for these special people.
Techno Destructo
Riding In Peace
I'm all for this rego idea too.I don't have a problem with a roadies' right to use the road. (though I know a lot of people that do)
I always check my blind spots and give a wide berth when overtaking them.
However I do think that registration for road bikes is a good idea, even if it was a pittance amount, heck even if it was free I wouldn't care. I think it's important for both cars AND road riders to have the accountability for their actions that would come from having a registered vehicle. (or maybe I'm just dreamin')
EXCEPT if it does happen, I expect every single smallest little right that the motorist has to be mine as well. And that means being able to ride on every street, at whatever speed I feel comfortable at. And to not be intimidated by a single motorist who isn't happy that I'm on the road in front of them (because, let's be honest here... that's the only time they give a shit... if there's the SLIGHTEST chance their convenience and comfort could be threatened, even for a few seconds).
OR a bicycle infrastructure that ACTUALLY works. Not what Sydney has. Which is WORSE than nothing. It's actually MORE dangerous to try to use the infrastructure here because it starts nowhere, dumps you nowhere or even worse... in dangerous situations (like bike lanes that suddenly disappear just before a roundabout).
I especially like the dual purpose bikelanes! A lane to ride your bike AND park your car in!!! AWESOME!!! Ever get doored before? It's an experience, let me tell you.
How about shared path lanes? Bicycles AND pedestrians! Wow! That's a great combo!!! Really safe - if you're happy riding at less than 10km/h with erratic pedestrians with their dogs and whatever... good luck using that for any kind of even half-serious cycling/commuting.
Employ cyclists to make bicycle infrastructure (as opposed to the clueless twits who seem to usually be in charge of it), fund it properly, and make it safe for everyone to ride everywhere, and I'll be running to pay my rego to ride a bike.
Until then, I guess paying for my existing taxes, car rego, car insurance, pink slips and green slips, all while I ride my bike to work, will have to suffice for those people crying "PAY REGO".
Y'know, call me crazy but, if this rego-for-cyclists thing ever did happen, somehow I don't think that would make the motorists any happier after the initial news, and that they would be screaming something else out of the car soon enough.
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triedntested
Likes Bikes
It's directed at anyone that thinks rego for bikes is a good idea.
Tom Foolery
Likes Bikes
Clearly anyone who reckons you should pay rego to be able to ride a bike on todays roads hasn't the slightest clue about economics.
I've gotten a road bike recently and I'm finding it interesting to decide between the bike path (legal in ACT) and the road. Both are dangerous, but one has less buses and more hot chicks to perve at.
I've gotten a road bike recently and I'm finding it interesting to decide between the bike path (legal in ACT) and the road. Both are dangerous, but one has less buses and more hot chicks to perve at.
MountainBikeMike
Likes Dirt
Read the title of this thread... "WhoCauses Cyclists Deaths?," And the initial post.
How is any of this 'rego forced upon riders' going to effect the situation of riders being much more fragile and vulnerable to motorists, whilst using our roads?
The drivers will still feel the negative emotions that come with, as stated previously, having to negotiate any hazards (bicycles, motorbikes, any other vehicle on the road, pedestrians, crashes, fallen branches or litter, potholes, open car doors, etc..). The drivers may still be forced to slow down to avoid these obstacles, and the riders may be forced to do the same.
To the point, I think infrastructure needs to be improved for one. Bicycle lanes need to be more constant, and more frequent.
The other is advertising, or perhaps training for bicycle-car related road conditions, that can be broadcasted/attended by both parties.
To touch on the bike lane bit; you cant just start demolishing previously built infrastructure such as housing and peoples lawns, but more of the current road space can be used. Some people will argue that using more road space means less space for cars, incurring slower traffic and traffic jams. If the bike lanes and riding infrastructure is in place it means more people will choose to ride their bikes (safely and quickly, with less disruption to drivers). As Techno said, a bike takes up 1 sixth of the space of a car...
How is any of this 'rego forced upon riders' going to effect the situation of riders being much more fragile and vulnerable to motorists, whilst using our roads?
The drivers will still feel the negative emotions that come with, as stated previously, having to negotiate any hazards (bicycles, motorbikes, any other vehicle on the road, pedestrians, crashes, fallen branches or litter, potholes, open car doors, etc..). The drivers may still be forced to slow down to avoid these obstacles, and the riders may be forced to do the same.
To the point, I think infrastructure needs to be improved for one. Bicycle lanes need to be more constant, and more frequent.
The other is advertising, or perhaps training for bicycle-car related road conditions, that can be broadcasted/attended by both parties.
To touch on the bike lane bit; you cant just start demolishing previously built infrastructure such as housing and peoples lawns, but more of the current road space can be used. Some people will argue that using more road space means less space for cars, incurring slower traffic and traffic jams. If the bike lanes and riding infrastructure is in place it means more people will choose to ride their bikes (safely and quickly, with less disruption to drivers). As Techno said, a bike takes up 1 sixth of the space of a car...
LJohn
Likes Dirt
Just to reinforce the stupidity of the select motoring community, I was yelled at by a guy because a) he didn't think cyclists possess the same right of way through roundabouts as cars, and b) he cut me off, endangering his car.
His point went along the lines of 'I don't want to have to deal with the consequences of hitting a cyclist, the damage repair bill, the lawyer, so stay off the road'
****ing idiot.
His point went along the lines of 'I don't want to have to deal with the consequences of hitting a cyclist, the damage repair bill, the lawyer, so stay off the road'
****ing idiot.
screw loose
Likes Dirt
+1 Techno. Thanks for taking the time to reiterate. It feels like this argument (rego for bikes) makes its way into waay too many discussions. One would dream that logic and common sense prevails. What a backwards country Oz can be.
Mate I don't know about sunny Gold Coasts traffic but here in Sydney most of the bicycles are traveling much faster than the cars sitting in km long traffic jams.
I commute on my roadbike to work everyday and it is by far the fastest mode of transport in the inner city. 20 mins on my bike or 35 mins on a train that might not come or 40 mins in my car. Which would you choose?
I do however think that you need to be choosie about which roads you ride on.
I constantly see people trying to cycle up streets like Cleveland Street in inner Sydney which is a death wish. We all have the right to ride wherever we like but why the hell would you choose to take a busy skinny road that is loaded with trucks when there are several back empty back streets 1 block over that are much better and safer???
The old you don't pay rego argument is bollocks too.
I own two cars and a DH trailer and I leave my car at home on weekdays. So I pay more than most people but use less. How does that make me less eligible?
I'd love a rego system for bikes I think it would work great. If I could use the same rego plate number as my car and it's included in that rego cost that would work even better.
As my non use of car would be being rewarded by not having to pay extra but still be accountable for my actions on the road.
niftydog
Likes Dirt
Don't know about you guys, but boy am I'm sick of this "time-poor" bullshit - it's just an excuse for being an asshole.
Nobody is actually that busy, and if you think you are you need help.
If we could all just chill out and stop freaking out over nothing the world would be a better place.
Nobody is actually that busy, and if you think you are you need help.
If we could all just chill out and stop freaking out over nothing the world would be a better place.
I agree with Mattyd....I commute 50km (round trip in Melbourne) every day and I stop at every red light, including pedestrians., keep to the left, dont ride 2 abreast...but I constantly see the other commuters...usually the recreational, 10min riders, that think they have every right as a pedestrian, cyclist and motorist!
It is these cyclists, that cause a bad name for law abiding cyclists, and motorists total disdain for being inconvenienced.
I am only alive today because of my bike handling skills when a car decides to side swipe me (when there a 2 other lanes totally clear), turns in front of me etc etc etc,...you all know how it is...
The problem is the lact of respect by motorists of cyclists, and if all those cyclists decided to get the train or drive their car, the 60min commute would turn into 90+mins and the trains would never leave the station!
In the end...cyclists come off second best regardless whose at fault, so be defensive in your riding and keep your fingers crossed you get to see you boss every day, (and your family every night!)
It is these cyclists, that cause a bad name for law abiding cyclists, and motorists total disdain for being inconvenienced.
I am only alive today because of my bike handling skills when a car decides to side swipe me (when there a 2 other lanes totally clear), turns in front of me etc etc etc,...you all know how it is...
The problem is the lact of respect by motorists of cyclists, and if all those cyclists decided to get the train or drive their car, the 60min commute would turn into 90+mins and the trains would never leave the station!
In the end...cyclists come off second best regardless whose at fault, so be defensive in your riding and keep your fingers crossed you get to see you boss every day, (and your family every night!)
Techno Destructo
Riding In Peace
You don't have to keep left, it's your lane. And you ARE allowed to ride 2 abreast legally. At least in NSW.
And as for disdain from motorists... you've caused it the moment you're in front of any driver. That's all you need. If you obey all the laws to the letter, I'm pretty sure you'll actually make them hate you more. At least, that's my experience I had when I tried it for a period during my last 10 years of commuting by bike in Sydney.
So what's better for keeping motorists off your ass and off your case? Being law-abiding? Or conversely, doing everything in your power (SAFELY...) to complete your journey as quickly as possible and get off the road (and out of the sight and mind of motorists)?
Maybe it's just a case of "damned if we do, damned if we don't"?
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scblack
Leucocholic
I disagree with the keep to the left idea, unless there is a verge to ride on safely. I will very rarely squeeze to the left in the traffic lane. That makes people think they can squeeze past you, and that is when you are likely to get hit. I take the centre of the lane, so that drivers must overtake safely as they would any other slow vehicle. Once I can move over though, I do so straight away.
Defensive riding is the only way to go, I treat every driver as someone who has not seen me. Even if it slows me, arriving three seconds later is better than being squashed under an inattentive Camry.
Techno Destructo
Riding In Peace
+1ten characters
As scblack says, ride defensively. Know your road rules and where you can ride. In NSW, you are, by law, allowed to ride 2 abreast as long as you are not more than 1.5 metres apart. You are also permitted to take up a lane. You also have to obey ALL the road rules that cars have to.
Being timid or unsure is a surefire way to get creamed. If you struggle riding in traffic, don't bite off more than you can chew.
One of the most important things you can do is BE VISIBLE. When commuting, my lights are on day and night. That"s an Ayup on the front with a white flasher, plug in handlebar lights on each end of the bar, 4 red flashers at the back, a red flasher on the rear of the helmet and a white flasher on the front of the helmet. When it's cold I don a fluoro yellow jacket and when it's warmer a fluoro yellow vest. With that much lighting etc people give me a really wide berth. A popular excuse with motorists who hit a cyclist is "I didn't see them." Be as visible as possible and that excuse is now out of the equation. They are now "responsible" for their own actions.
While I'm at it, fuck the headphones off. I understand "Eye of the tiger" and "Axel F" help you smash that hill in the big dog, but it removes the second most important sense a cyclist has next to vision- you're hearing. No use arguing "I didn't hear the car behind me before it hit" when you're lying under it's wheels. Even if it's the drivers fault, you still lose.
I've also found being polite and courteous works wonders. When you're driving a car and someone cuts you off, you're first reaction is anger right? When that person offers the wave of apology, you calm down and wave back (I hope), don't you? When you let someone merge in front of you and they wave thanks it makes you fell OK that they're being civil. Same deal on a bike. If someone is trying to enter off a side street and they see you coming and wait for you, give tham a wave. If you need to take up a full lane for a short length and there are cars lined up behind you, give them a wave when you move over and they pass. If someone cuts you off but then apologises, be polite. Sometimes it is a pain is the arse to feel like such a suck-up but it is an easy way to foster good motorist/cyclist relationships.
Now ride and be safe!
Being timid or unsure is a surefire way to get creamed. If you struggle riding in traffic, don't bite off more than you can chew.
One of the most important things you can do is BE VISIBLE. When commuting, my lights are on day and night. That"s an Ayup on the front with a white flasher, plug in handlebar lights on each end of the bar, 4 red flashers at the back, a red flasher on the rear of the helmet and a white flasher on the front of the helmet. When it's cold I don a fluoro yellow jacket and when it's warmer a fluoro yellow vest. With that much lighting etc people give me a really wide berth. A popular excuse with motorists who hit a cyclist is "I didn't see them." Be as visible as possible and that excuse is now out of the equation. They are now "responsible" for their own actions.
While I'm at it, fuck the headphones off. I understand "Eye of the tiger" and "Axel F" help you smash that hill in the big dog, but it removes the second most important sense a cyclist has next to vision- you're hearing. No use arguing "I didn't hear the car behind me before it hit" when you're lying under it's wheels. Even if it's the drivers fault, you still lose.
I've also found being polite and courteous works wonders. When you're driving a car and someone cuts you off, you're first reaction is anger right? When that person offers the wave of apology, you calm down and wave back (I hope), don't you? When you let someone merge in front of you and they wave thanks it makes you fell OK that they're being civil. Same deal on a bike. If someone is trying to enter off a side street and they see you coming and wait for you, give tham a wave. If you need to take up a full lane for a short length and there are cars lined up behind you, give them a wave when you move over and they pass. If someone cuts you off but then apologises, be polite. Sometimes it is a pain is the arse to feel like such a suck-up but it is an easy way to foster good motorist/cyclist relationships.
Now ride and be safe!
eyes
Likes Bikes and Dirt
QLD law (http://www.legislation.qld.gov.au/LEGISLTN/CURRENT/T/TrantOpRURR99.pdf):
A bit hard to decipher - but I think it is saying we aren't allowed to ride side by side on any road that is multi-lane???
It does't define it for a 'rider' which is different to a 'driver'...Edit: No I see "more than 1 other rider", so 2 abreast is fine...
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I commute in Adelaide every day along Torrens Rd and through North Adelaide.
I've been hit twice, both in the same spot (going around Wellington Park). The road does 4 90 degree turns around a park, and there's a bike lane the whole way and 2 lanes for cars. Almost every driver cuts the corner through the bike lane, regardless of the presence of a cyclist or not. These days i simply swing out of the bike lane and take up the left hand vehicle lane, and probably twice a week, cop and earful for it.
I got pegged once by a woman on the phone who cut the corner badly, then stayed n the bike lane down the straight and drifted over until she ran me into parked cars. The next time it was a dude who cut the corner then swerved into a parking space without indicating. Both used the "I didn't see you" defence.
The second time, the following car was the police. Their reaction was to put on the lights, do a Starsky and Hutch skid and run over to me yelling "Stay down, the Ambulance is on the way!" They took some convincing that I was ok, but they roasted the driver in front of me, hit him with a neg driving fine on the spot, got him to give me the contents of his wallet to cover the damages as he wasn't insured before giving me a lift home. They were sick of bad driver behaviour too, and having to listen to cyclists stories of being hit by bad drivers and not being able to do anything.
Both incidents would have been avided had I been preventing them from trying to pass me around those corners, so I don't let them. I intimated this to the cops who said that by taking up the lane I wasn't technically breaking the law and they'd be fine with it.
As for the rego for bikes debate I register 2 cars. I vote we designate lanes of traffic on the basis of how many vehicles you have registered: if you have 1 car registered in your name you can only drive in the left lane. If you register 2, then you can driven in the next lane over. If there's a 3rd, you have to have 3 registered vehicles etc. That's fair right, given that your right to use the road is dependant on how much rego you are paying right?
I've been hit twice, both in the same spot (going around Wellington Park). The road does 4 90 degree turns around a park, and there's a bike lane the whole way and 2 lanes for cars. Almost every driver cuts the corner through the bike lane, regardless of the presence of a cyclist or not. These days i simply swing out of the bike lane and take up the left hand vehicle lane, and probably twice a week, cop and earful for it.
I got pegged once by a woman on the phone who cut the corner badly, then stayed n the bike lane down the straight and drifted over until she ran me into parked cars. The next time it was a dude who cut the corner then swerved into a parking space without indicating. Both used the "I didn't see you" defence.
The second time, the following car was the police. Their reaction was to put on the lights, do a Starsky and Hutch skid and run over to me yelling "Stay down, the Ambulance is on the way!" They took some convincing that I was ok, but they roasted the driver in front of me, hit him with a neg driving fine on the spot, got him to give me the contents of his wallet to cover the damages as he wasn't insured before giving me a lift home. They were sick of bad driver behaviour too, and having to listen to cyclists stories of being hit by bad drivers and not being able to do anything.
Both incidents would have been avided had I been preventing them from trying to pass me around those corners, so I don't let them. I intimated this to the cops who said that by taking up the lane I wasn't technically breaking the law and they'd be fine with it.
As for the rego for bikes debate I register 2 cars. I vote we designate lanes of traffic on the basis of how many vehicles you have registered: if you have 1 car registered in your name you can only drive in the left lane. If you register 2, then you can driven in the next lane over. If there's a 3rd, you have to have 3 registered vehicles etc. That's fair right, given that your right to use the road is dependant on how much rego you are paying right?
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Techno Destructo
Riding In Peace
Yeah, it's just saying if it's one lane, you can't do the 2 riders abreast thing... which honestly, is common sense.QLD law A bit hard to decipher - but I think it is saying we aren't allowed to ride side by side on any road that is multi-lane???
Edit: No I see "more than 1 other rider", so 2 abreast is fine...
But you can in NSW, but seriously, only the most stubborn, and short-sighted cyclists would try to abuse that right.
Even though it's technically legal to do it, THAT would cause some major bad feelings towards cyclists. Sorta like the dumbass I saw once riding up the Spit (a large and very busy hill on the Northern Beaches of Sydney, NSW) on the main road while there are quiet side streets on both sides of the Spit that take you to the same end point. Another case of, technically legal, but realistically a BAD idea.
I think we do need to have some common sense when it comes to route choice. Especially if you're riding alone. A whole peleton of guys together I can understand not taking side streets. They are also more like a slow moving bus or truck that people will just go around. But a lone guy cycling up the spit hill. That's a suicide mission in my opinion.
It would be so unpleasant a ride anyway why would you bother. I'd much rather ride the quiet way without the heavy traffic up your ass.
Cyclists who go through red lights are in the same category. You're taking a risk for sutch little gain and also making cyclists look bad. I've seen two guys get clobbered doing it.
It is a stupid thing to do.