What does "Riding to Heartrate" mean?
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bear the bear
Is a real bear
Raf: 8 minute?? That's VO2 teritory
The closest accepted definition for aerobic threshold is "A term sometimes used by sports coaches and trainers to describe a level of exercise somewhat below the anaerobic threshold. It, however, is not a defined physiological term. The AeT is sometimes defined as the exercise intensity at which anaerobic energy pathways start to operate and where blood lactate reaches a concentration of 2 mmol/litre (at rest it is around 1). This tends to be at a heartrate of approximately 20-40 bpm less than the anaerobic threshold and correlates with about 65% of the maximum heart rate".
wolfjjj: What you are describing is anaerobic threshold/ lactic threshold/ OBLA. The lactate threshold (LT) is the exercise intensity at which lactic acid starts to accumulate in the blood stream. (This is not strictly true, as 'lactic acid' per se does not exist at the pH-levels encountered in the body. Its anion, the lactate molecule, accumulates in the blood—hence its usage in 'onset of blood lactate accumulation' (OBLA) is 'lactate' and not 'lactic acid.'
When exercising below the LT intensity any lactate produced by the muscles is removed by the body without it building up.
Although the lactate threshold is defined as the point when lactic acid starts to accumulate, some testers approximate this by using the point at which lactate reaches a concentration of 4 mM (at rest it is around 1 mM).
The closest accepted definition for aerobic threshold is "A term sometimes used by sports coaches and trainers to describe a level of exercise somewhat below the anaerobic threshold. It, however, is not a defined physiological term. The AeT is sometimes defined as the exercise intensity at which anaerobic energy pathways start to operate and where blood lactate reaches a concentration of 2 mmol/litre (at rest it is around 1). This tends to be at a heartrate of approximately 20-40 bpm less than the anaerobic threshold and correlates with about 65% of the maximum heart rate".
wolfjjj: What you are describing is anaerobic threshold/ lactic threshold/ OBLA. The lactate threshold (LT) is the exercise intensity at which lactic acid starts to accumulate in the blood stream. (This is not strictly true, as 'lactic acid' per se does not exist at the pH-levels encountered in the body. Its anion, the lactate molecule, accumulates in the blood—hence its usage in 'onset of blood lactate accumulation' (OBLA) is 'lactate' and not 'lactic acid.'
When exercising below the LT intensity any lactate produced by the muscles is removed by the body without it building up.
Although the lactate threshold is defined as the point when lactic acid starts to accumulate, some testers approximate this by using the point at which lactate reaches a concentration of 4 mM (at rest it is around 1 mM).
Thanks Bear. Still very early in the learning phase on this.
ok Vo2 threshold being the maximum oxygen I can bring in?
I was never clear on what the CTS number was measuring, I just know I cant keep that up forever. And it is surely variable when measuring HR.
If my measured 8 minute average HR is 158 (the average over 8 minutes going as hard as I can cincistantly maintin), what is this threshold?
For comparison, just under this, say 156, I can go for about 20 minutes,
At 150, I can go for an hour surely (unfortunately MTB tracks rarely give me the chance what with all the complicated downhill bits).
And 144 is my average over 6 hours, peaks and troughs included.
I can spike up to 167 for short periods, say 1 minute at best.
SO what is all this telling me?
My summation for my body is, if I want to keep riding strongly for a long time, I need to stay under 156, 150 being comfortable for long periods. Anything above 158 hurts and takes alot out of my body, which isnt great for Enduro.
What does it all mean?
Raf
ok Vo2 threshold being the maximum oxygen I can bring in?
I was never clear on what the CTS number was measuring, I just know I cant keep that up forever. And it is surely variable when measuring HR.
If my measured 8 minute average HR is 158 (the average over 8 minutes going as hard as I can cincistantly maintin), what is this threshold?
For comparison, just under this, say 156, I can go for about 20 minutes,
At 150, I can go for an hour surely (unfortunately MTB tracks rarely give me the chance what with all the complicated downhill bits).
And 144 is my average over 6 hours, peaks and troughs included.
I can spike up to 167 for short periods, say 1 minute at best.
SO what is all this telling me?
My summation for my body is, if I want to keep riding strongly for a long time, I need to stay under 156, 150 being comfortable for long periods. Anything above 158 hurts and takes alot out of my body, which isnt great for Enduro.
What does it all mean?
Raf
bear the bear
Is a real bear
I haven't read any of the CTS stuff per se...I try to keep my junk reading to the internet 
But looking at your numbers something isn't right.
If you can hold 156 for 20min, they why only 158 for 8?
I would expect that then number would be somewhere in the mid to high 160's.
I suggest that you re-test for you 8 minute number as it looks low as this will be what you are basing your whole training program around.
The Bear
But looking at your numbers something isn't right.
If you can hold 156 for 20min, they why only 158 for 8?
I would expect that then number would be somewhere in the mid to high 160's.
I suggest that you re-test for you 8 minute number as it looks low as this will be what you are basing your whole training program around.
The Bear
wagga
Likes Bikes
Bear,
The 158 HR that RAF is talking is the highest average for 2 8 minute runs.
I have also completed the two runs using the same information as RAF and mine is not much different to his.
I am no fitness instructor or sports scienctist so I cannot confirm that this is correct, but my sister is a personal trainer. She worked out my maxium HR at Anerobic Threshold and it was 5 bpm diffferent to the CST field test that RAF and I camoplete. My highest maximum for this test was 178.
I feel that with her input and the science provide in the book, I am comfortable with calculating my training zones using 158 as my max just likeRAF unless you can provide another alternative to this.
Everybody has their own was a looking at something and if the science works for me than that is what I go with. So far its working in my lead up rides. I have removed almost 4 mins of my average around my local just by using this information, and that is even before I start the traing program.
Daniel
The 158 HR that RAF is talking is the highest average for 2 8 minute runs.
I have also completed the two runs using the same information as RAF and mine is not much different to his.
I am no fitness instructor or sports scienctist so I cannot confirm that this is correct, but my sister is a personal trainer. She worked out my maxium HR at Anerobic Threshold and it was 5 bpm diffferent to the CST field test that RAF and I camoplete. My highest maximum for this test was 178.
I feel that with her input and the science provide in the book, I am comfortable with calculating my training zones using 158 as my max just likeRAF unless you can provide another alternative to this.
Everybody has their own was a looking at something and if the science works for me than that is what I go with. So far its working in my lead up rides. I have removed almost 4 mins of my average around my local just by using this information, and that is even before I start the traing program.
Daniel
JD26
Likes Dirt
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bear the bear
Is a real bear
As mentioned above, the problem with Raf's no.s is the difference between his 8min & 20min HR's.
20 minutes sits well within your aerobic capacity, 8min efforts are hitting the top end.
I am only suggesting he re-test because of this. IMO he hasn't pushed hard enough.
Also you shouldn't be comparing your numbers to someone elses!
As an example my 20min is 156bpm but 8 minutes is 183bpm, but I haven't given you my age, training history (acute & chronic load) etc
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JD26
Likes Dirt
that's correct. Don't compare!!
but whilst we are throwing down....
My 20 minute is 177bpm with the 8 minute at 184 - I usually race an XCO at 94% of max HR for 90-120 minutes. Totally irrelevant for anyone else though.
I appreciate you helping me understand this Bear, and Im taking it all in.
In regards to my test, I did it indoors on a wind trainer, and yes, I probably could have gone harder, at least a little, but I just couldnt maintain the power at a HR above 160 and that being said I nearly fell off the trainer at the end of the second one. Both tests resulted in the same HR measurement, 158.
I spiked to 165 a few times, but fell to 156 as well, so the avergae was only 158. I suppose I should have taken lag into effect on such a small time interval.....hmmmm.
I will do this again. It may well be that in the real world, on the bike, climbing a hill, 160 might be possible, but it says clearly not to do it on hills (for some reason I cant remember).
I weigh 100kg.
I am relatively fit, relative to the average Joe. I ride stromlo regularly and do 90% of my training on the MTB.
It seems this threshold really does hurt me.
As soon as I get above 158, im in a different zone completely and I really cant maintain any more for very long. It is average as well. I probably should clarify, that when I say 158 for 8, I mean the average, Im spiking into the 160's during that time, but any spike corresponds to a fall of equal wieght it would appear.
You would know stromlo well, so I'll use some examples.
Since learning that the Jet Black lap involved a 100m climb over 2km firetrail, I have been doing fire trail Hill Reps. From the car park I climb up via blue gums firetrail, to the bobby pin junction, turn right and climb the fire trail along Cardiac climb, then hairpin left climbing up to the top of ABC and onto the road for the climb to the obsewrvatory. I truly cant remeber how long that takes, (Tegski might rememebr from our last seesion) probably 20 minutes?
During that climb, I can maintain 156 - 158 for the whole climb, with the odd spike into the 160s. Its actually a challenge to keep it under that. Note that it is my training intention to maintain that rate, so not necesarily the result of the effort if that makes sense. I have done 7 reps of that climb back to back, over 5.5 hours. So it is maintainable.
However, whenever I have tried to "Smash the climb", I cannot get further than 1/3 up cardiac fire trail before I have to sit back down and 'drive miss daisy' for a while. Then I get into a rollercoaster of between 168 down to 154 etc.
It does make a positive difference in time, but I could not do that more than 3 times before I would be a dribbling mess. I have not tried more than twice.
I cant think of other info that might help you unravel my situation, but I will try to if you ask, and I can do any stromlo track you want me too if that helps comapare.
Truly appreciative.
Raf
In regards to my test, I did it indoors on a wind trainer, and yes, I probably could have gone harder, at least a little, but I just couldnt maintain the power at a HR above 160 and that being said I nearly fell off the trainer at the end of the second one. Both tests resulted in the same HR measurement, 158.
I spiked to 165 a few times, but fell to 156 as well, so the avergae was only 158. I suppose I should have taken lag into effect on such a small time interval.....hmmmm.
I will do this again. It may well be that in the real world, on the bike, climbing a hill, 160 might be possible, but it says clearly not to do it on hills (for some reason I cant remember).
I have to give you the uneducated answer here.... sorry, I just dont know enough but I will try and give you as much info as I can....
I weigh 100kg.
I am relatively fit, relative to the average Joe. I ride stromlo regularly and do 90% of my training on the MTB.
It seems this threshold really does hurt me.
As soon as I get above 158, im in a different zone completely and I really cant maintain any more for very long. It is average as well. I probably should clarify, that when I say 158 for 8, I mean the average, Im spiking into the 160's during that time, but any spike corresponds to a fall of equal wieght it would appear.
You would know stromlo well, so I'll use some examples.
Since learning that the Jet Black lap involved a 100m climb over 2km firetrail, I have been doing fire trail Hill Reps. From the car park I climb up via blue gums firetrail, to the bobby pin junction, turn right and climb the fire trail along Cardiac climb, then hairpin left climbing up to the top of ABC and onto the road for the climb to the obsewrvatory. I truly cant remeber how long that takes, (Tegski might rememebr from our last seesion) probably 20 minutes?
During that climb, I can maintain 156 - 158 for the whole climb, with the odd spike into the 160s. Its actually a challenge to keep it under that. Note that it is my training intention to maintain that rate, so not necesarily the result of the effort if that makes sense. I have done 7 reps of that climb back to back, over 5.5 hours. So it is maintainable.
However, whenever I have tried to "Smash the climb", I cannot get further than 1/3 up cardiac fire trail before I have to sit back down and 'drive miss daisy' for a while. Then I get into a rollercoaster of between 168 down to 154 etc.
It does make a positive difference in time, but I could not do that more than 3 times before I would be a dribbling mess. I have not tried more than twice.
I cant think of other info that might help you unravel my situation, but I will try to if you ask, and I can do any stromlo track you want me too if that helps comapare.
Truly appreciative.
Raf
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JD26
Likes Dirt
Wind trainer is really hard to get and keep the HR up. Outside will definitely raise it.
If this is your Anaerobic Threshold (aka Lactate Threshold or defllection point) then it really does hurt.
It can take years to get used to the feeling that LT and or anaerobic work provides.
I would almost go so far as to say that your LT may be around the 156-158 mark, (my experience is that climbing HR is very close to LT) but what concerns me is that you can do it over 5.5 hours.
So then I think that the average (smashed) for 3 climbs might be a bit closer to the LT level - 2 hours worth. I know the climb you are talking about, I will do about 4-7 reps up the road and these correspond to my personal LT. The fireroad you are talking about is pretty hard.
I would even suggest you race a Short track event (there is one at Stromlo this arvo) - you will see some 'real' numbers there which will probably shed some good light on what your potential numbers can be.
bear the bear
Is a real bear
If your testing on a trainer, is a good quality one?
How much cooling do you have, fans etc?
Can you get someone to watch/ cheer you on? It's suprising how much harder you can go with a bit of support.
Whats you pacing like? Straight into it hard or gradual build up.
I would be inclined to also do a test up the road to the top of Stromlo. It's a nice steady climb that can be done seated and should take 8-10mins
How much cooling do you have, fans etc?
Can you get someone to watch/ cheer you on? It's suprising how much harder you can go with a bit of support.
Whats you pacing like? Straight into it hard or gradual build up.
I would be inclined to also do a test up the road to the top of Stromlo. It's a nice steady climb that can be done seated and should take 8-10mins
wolfjjj
Likes Dirt
Yep my bad, I was thinking anaerobic threshold not aerobic.
bear the bear
Is a real bear
wolfjjj
Likes Dirt
All this talk of 8 min HR test has me interested. I've been reading Heartzones recently and starting to put that into practice but haven't done that many of the assessment tests yet, tough part for me is just finding a good spot to test it where I won't get stopped by cars/traffic lights. Hills are fine but most are too short and the downhills allow my HR to drop.
I had a look through some of my most recent race data and it seems like my LT is around or slightly above 170 on the bike, and I can sit at 170 or just below for around an hour at a time (or for a long lap of an enduro) going all out. I can get up into the high 180's but anything above 170ish hurts and I blowup pretty quick and need time to recover.
Max HR on the bike is high 180's, I get to 187 fairly often on all out hill climbs but I've never cracked 190. Running though I can crack 190 without too many problems but that is usually higher than for cycling in general.
I had a look through some of my most recent race data and it seems like my LT is around or slightly above 170 on the bike, and I can sit at 170 or just below for around an hour at a time (or for a long lap of an enduro) going all out. I can get up into the high 180's but anything above 170ish hurts and I blowup pretty quick and need time to recover.
Max HR on the bike is high 180's, I get to 187 fairly often on all out hill climbs but I've never cracked 190. Running though I can crack 190 without too many problems but that is usually higher than for cycling in general.
JD26
Likes Dirt
It is such a fine line between sustainable and blowing up and it getting messy! I do believe that small gains can be made - ie raising the ceiling on your LT. It is quite well know that the anaerobic capacity and LT ratio are linked. Therefore if you work on your anaerobic ability and raise that capability, then your LT will also rise.
You are probably more efficient on the bike than you are on the run, OR (if you are a runner) the run does use a bunch more muscles than the cycling, which will 'up' the HR achievable.