Russia Vs. America; Here we go again kids!

PINT of Stella. mate!

PINT of Stella. mate!

Many, many Scotches
Rusty_68 said:
Because the USA has never invaded another country without good cause right???
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While I was opposed to the Iraq war it could at least be said that Saddam Hussein was a ruthless dictator who had a history of invading his next door neighbours and had used chemical weapons on his own people.

Ukrainian President Volodomyr Zelensky on the other hand is a 44 year old former comedian and TV personality who was democratically elected as head of a country who have no history of seizing the territory of their neighbours.

Meanwhile in the White, Red and Blue Corner we have Vladimir Putin. A renowned ruthless dictator who has in the 22 years he's been in power done the following.

  • Invaded the independent nation of Georgia
  • Invaded and Annexed Crimea
  • Engineered a separatist insurgency in Ukraine that has had the collateral damage of thousands of deaths including the 298 passengers and crew of Flight MH 17 -27 of whom were Australians!
  • Has routinely had opposition figures assassinated - often violently, sometimes by poison and he's not kept that shit contained within Russian borders either.
  • Is widely suspected to be behind the bombings of several Moscow apartment buildings in order to engineer public support for further military action in Chechnya and help catapult him into the position as successor of Boris Yeltsin.
  • Has provided full support of Syrian President Bashar al-Assad who has been accused of using chemical weapons on his own people as part of one of the most brutal civil wars in this century.
  • Has been in charge of widespread asset theft and redistribution of national wealth to his own pockets and that of his closest supporters - to the tune of Trillions of dollars.
  • Has engineered campaigns of hate against the LBGT communities within Russia
  • Is in charge of giant internet troll farms who have been proven to be acting in widespread disinformation about everything from the US elections and Brexit to COVID.
  • And last but certainly not least, he still thinks a man can be taken seriously when he's rocking a comb-over.

Any 'What-About?-ism' when it comes to Russia and Putin can go and get fucked! The man is truly a monster.
 
Minlak

Minlak

custom titis
johnny said:
When you say you understand why he's doing it, do you mean that it is reasonable that he would do this or are you just saying that you understand his broader strategy?
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I think he thinks it is reasonable - I was referring to the broader strategy however - I do not feel I am qualified to have an opinion on what is actually happening.
 
rockmoose

rockmoose

his flabber is totally gastered
PINT of Stella. mate! said:
While I was opposed to the Iraq war it could at least be said that Saddam Hussein was a ruthless dictator who had a history of invading his next door neighbours and had used chemical weapons on his own people.

Ukrainian President Volodomyr Zelensky on the other hand is a 44 year old former comedian and TV personality who was democratically elected as head of a country who have no history of seizing the territory of their neighbours.

Meanwhile in the White, Red and Blue Corner we have Vladimir Putin. A renowned ruthless dictator who has in the 22 years he's been in power done the following.

  • Invaded the independent nation of Georgia
  • Invaded and Annexed Crimea
  • Engineered a separatist insurgency in Ukraine that has had the collateral damage of thousands of deaths including the 298 passengers and crew of Flight MH 17 -27 of whom were Australians!
  • Has routinely had opposition figures assassinated - often violently, sometimes by poison and he's not kept that shit contained within Russian borders either.
  • Is widely suspected to be behind the bombings of several Moscow apartment buildings in order to engineer public support for further military action in Chechnya and help catapult him into the position as successor of Boris Yeltsin.
  • Has provided full support of Syrian President Bashar al-Assad who has been accused of using chemical weapons on his own people as part of one of the most brutal civil wars in this century.
  • Has been in charge of widespread asset theft and redistribution of national wealth to his own pockets and that of his closest supporters - to the tune of Trillions of dollars.
  • Has engineered campaigns of hate against the LBGT communities within Russia
  • Is in charge of giant internet troll farms who have been proven to be acting in widespread disinformation about everything from the US elections and Brexit to COVID.
  • And last but certainly not least, he still thinks a man can be taken seriously when he's rocking a comb-over.

Any 'What-About?-ism' when it comes to Russia and Putin can go and get fucked! The man is truly a monster.
Click to expand...
A monster? No. He's a lovable hero. Not to mention handsome.
 
Mattyp

Mattyp

Cows go boing
PINT of Stella. mate! said:
While I was opposed to the Iraq war it could at least be said that Saddam Hussein was a ruthless dictator who had a history of invading his next door neighbours and had used chemical weapons on his own people.

Ukrainian President Volodomyr Zelensky on the other hand is a 44 year old former comedian and TV personality who was democratically elected as head of a country who have no history of seizing the territory of their neighbours.

Meanwhile in the White, Red and Blue Corner we have Vladimir Putin. A renowned ruthless dictator who has in the 22 years he's been in power done the following.

  • Invaded the independent nation of Georgia
  • Invaded and Annexed Crimea
  • Engineered a separatist insurgency in Ukraine that has had the collateral damage of thousands of deaths including the 298 passengers and crew of Flight MH 17 -27 of whom were Australians!
  • Has routinely had opposition figures assassinated - often violently, sometimes by poison and he's not kept that shit contained within Russian borders either.
  • Is widely suspected to be behind the bombings of several Moscow apartment buildings in order to engineer public support for further military action in Chechnya and help catapult him into the position as successor of Boris Yeltsin.
  • Has provided full support of Syrian President Bashar al-Assad who has been accused of using chemical weapons on his own people as part of one of the most brutal civil wars in this century.
  • Has been in charge of widespread asset theft and redistribution of national wealth to his own pockets and that of his closest supporters - to the tune of Trillions of dollars.
  • Has engineered campaigns of hate against the LBGT communities within Russia
  • Is in charge of giant internet troll farms who have been proven to be acting in widespread disinformation about everything from the US elections and Brexit to COVID.
  • And last but certainly not least, he still thinks a man can be taken seriously when he's rocking a comb-over.
Any 'What-About?-ism' when it comes to Russia and Putin can go and get fucked! The man is truly a monster.
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He's also basically changed the laws to make himself President until he is dead... Got Tyranny anyone?
 
Rusty_68

Rusty_68

say no to ooogamaflap
johnny said:
I don't understand this comment - Bad behaviour by the US has no relationship to what Russia is doing now. US was bad for what it has done in the past, Russia is bad for what it is doing today. Its possible to look at this invasion in isolation to what the US has done in the past and condemn them both.
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I do condemn them both. It's just a little bit pot/kettle for my tastes.
 
johnny

johnny

I'll tells ya!
Staff member
Minlak said:
I think he thinks it is reasonable - I was referring to the broader strategy however - I do not feel I am qualified to have an opinion on what is actually happening.
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I think that's really up for argument:
1 - Ukraine applied for NATO membership (NATO doesn't invite, countries have to apply)
2 - Ukraine has a long history of being dominated against its will by Russia
3 - NATO is a defensive organisation. To trigger a reaction from NATO, one of its member states must come under attack. NATO has never launched offensive operations in its history - I believe article 5 (or is it 7, I always get it mixed up with ANZUS...) has only ever been invoked once, when the US was attacked on 9/11. For Nato to do anything to Russia, it would have to come under attack from Russia first
4 - NATO's charter refuses membership to any country that is in a state of conflict - Ukraine has been in a state of conflict since 2014 (thanks to Russia)

The bottom line is, if Russia didn't threaten Ukraine, it wouldn't be seeking membership in NATO or looking to the EU. Ukraine is a sovereign state and it should be allowed to formulate it's own foreign and defence policies.
 
Minlak

Minlak

custom titis
johnny said:
I think that's really up for argument:
1 - Ukraine applied for NATO membership (NATO doesn't invite, countries have to apply)
2 - Ukraine has a long history of being dominated against its will by Russia
3 - NATO is a defensive organisation. To trigger a reaction from NATO, one of its member states must come under attack. NATO has never launched offensive operations in its history - I believe article 5 (or is it 7, I always get it mixed up with ANZUS...) has only ever been invoked once, when the US was attacked on 9/11. For Nato to do anything to Russia, it would have to come under attack from Russia first
4 - NATO's charter refuses membership to any country that is in a state of conflict - Ukraine has been in a state of conflict since 2014 (thanks to Russia)

The bottom line is, if Russia didn't threaten Ukraine, it wouldn't be seeking membership in NATO or looking to the EU. Ukraine is a sovereign state and it should be allowed to formulate it's own foreign and defence policies.
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See I’m not qualified :)
 
johnny

johnny

I'll tells ya!
Staff member
Rusty_68 said:
I do condemn them both. It's just a little bit pot/kettle for my tastes.
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Keep in mind, it's almost the whole world that is condemning Russia today, not just the US. In the UN Security Council you had countries like Kenya, Ghana, Albania, Ireland, Brazil, Germany, etc. condemning Russia. The only two countries that didn't were China and India. (India relies of Russia for defence acquisitions).

This really isn't an America/Russia thing. This is Russia invading another country completely unprovoked. What the US is saying today really shouldn't have any bearing on how this situation is judged, just as whatever Russia was saying in 2003 shouldn't have any bearing on how Washington was judged for invading Iraq.

For the record, I was out on the streets protesting the Iraq war before it began and after.
 
Flow-Rider

Flow-Rider

Burner
Putin is a totally loose cannon, it's an unprovoked and unjustified attack, and he's threatened the rest of the world with "consequences you've never seen" if they intervene. He's going to cause instability across Europe.
 
johnny

johnny

I'll tells ya!
Staff member
Flow-Rider said:
Putin is a totally loose cannon, it's an unprovoked and unjustified attack, and he's threatened the rest of the world with "consequences you've never seen" if they intervene. He's going to cause instability across Europe.
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Instability in Europe, wedging EU/NATO countries, forcing refugees into the EU, etc. etc. is part of the strategy here. He feels that he needs to keep Europe week and divided. According to the Long Telegram by George Kennan, this is always how Russia has acted since Czarist times, largely to balance for their own weak and inept leadership.

I strongly suggest that anyone who has 20 mins to kill read the Long Telegram from 1946 for an in-your-face example of how history repeats:
 
Litenbror

Litenbror

Eats Squid
johnny said:
Instability in Europe, wedging EU/NATO countries, forcing refugees into the EU, etc. etc. is part of the strategy here. He feels that he needs to keep Europe week and divided. According to the Long Telegram by George Kennan, this is always how Russia has acted since Czarist times, largely to balance for their own weak and inept leadership.

I strongly suggest that anyone who has 20 mins to kill read the Long Telegram from 1946 for an in-your-face example of how history repeats:
Click to expand...
Add to a weakened Europe a messed up global economy and you have the perfect autocrats picnic. Have heard (not confirmed yet still looking for a source) that the Saudis were asked to increase oil production to try and keep global energy prices in check but they refused. If global energy prices climb too high with the accelerating inflation in Western debt laden economies we are looking at some serious long term consequences for everyone.
 
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