For the cow puss drinkers.

[shakes]

I've never met a vegan who denies that eating meat helped us develop as a species, but I can't buy that as a justification to continue to go so. It's an arguement from tradition/antiquity. It's a different world than the one that our ancestors walked. If, however, you follow the 'Paleolithic diet', then I humbly apologise.
Eat what you want. That crazy vegan is an idiot if the story went as you describe......however I get the feeling we are only hearing half of the story ;-)

She was spouting a whole bunch of dribble that would of made a today tonight reporter proud. I was drunk and she was easy to bait because I had mostly facts/experiences and she had pretty much pure propoganda.

I wasnt expecting a response like yours so quickly, it's definitely a somewhat hollow argument but it usually gets people thinking at least a little. It would be interesting to see where we went as a species if we stopped eating meat.

 

[Norco Maniac]

^^ i've always found eating meat, and even fish, an ethical dilemma. having been a vegetarian and returned to eating meat i salve my conscience by being thankful for the animal on my plate, something i picked up from saying "grace" at meals when i was a kid.

 

[moorey]

I'll guarantee we won't DEvolve ;-)
Calling YOUR pov "facts" and HERS propaghanda is showing a little nativity. I lived my first 20 years as a hardcore carno on a farm, and last 20 a vego/vegan (last 15 vegan), so I understand both sides. Neither is wrong/right. Both have morons with propaghanda.
I'll 'argue' with people all day to explain how and why I live as I do, but I have no interest in converting people to my side.
I'm not a better person than anyone else for being a vegan, but I'm a better person for it. There's a difference. If people can't get that, then fuck em. :very_drunk: ;-)

 

[moorey]

^^ i've always found eating meat, and even fish, an ethical dilemma. having been a vegetarian and returned to eating meat i salve my conscience by being thankful for the animal on my plate, something i picked up from saying "grace" at meals when i was a kid.

Dude, you're all over the shop, lol. 'Canon fodder' to meat eater in one thread. Meh, whatever floats your boat :very_drunk:

 

[shakes]

I'll guarantee we won't DEvolve ;-)
Calling YOUR pov "facts" and HERS propaghanda is showing a little nativity. I lived my first 20 years as a hardcore carno on a farm, and last 20 a vego/vegan (last 15 vegan), so I understand both sides. Neither is wrong/right. Both have morons with propaghanda.
I'll 'argue' with people all day to explain how and why I live as I do, but I have no interest in converting people to my side.
I'm not a better person than anyone else for being a vegan, but I'm a better person for it. There's a difference. If people can't get that, then fuck em. :very_drunk: ;-)

Well said! In my experiences it's unusually hard to find a true vegan that doesnt feel like they have some sort of moral right to tell you that you shouldn't eat meat/animal products.

I have a lot of respect for someone such as yourself as I know how much dedication/hard work it can take to find products that are truly not animal based. I'm far to lazy for that.

 

[Norco Maniac]

Dude, you're all over the shop, lol. 'Cannon fodder' to meat eater in one thread. Meh, whatever floats your boat :very_drunk:

so, you've never found an ethical dilemma in any area of your life?

i was raised with the common "meat and two veg" diet, as a teenager decided to try vegetarianism after researching alternate sources of protein. i still don't believe meat is a sustainable way of using the environment, neither is broadacre farming, but i have no answers for either dilemma. i eat meat again now, after many years of not doing so, because i find it difficult to sustain the physical work i do and my riding without it.

so feel free to judge me without any background knowledge on my life or health issues....oh that's right, you already did.

 

[jacko13]

I'll guarantee we won't DEvolve ;-)

showing a little nativity I hope you mean Naivety

Infact, through the use of antibiotics and other drugs we are in a sense devolving as a race as our reliance on medication increases and in particular creating circumstances which allows people with genetic defects, disabilities, live in our society.
Im not saying thats wrong.

Its a whole other can of worms anyways.

O.T.
Our body is designed and has evolved to eat meat. Give it what it needs.

 

[Oliver.]

Exactly. Real animal abuse occurs in battery chook farms and other aspects of society. The dairy industry isn't perfect, but there's much better areas to be focusing anti-abuse energies.

What? There's a problem over here that's 50% bigger than the problem over there, so lets just disregard aforementioned problem and focus all our efforts on the latter?

Try that approach anywhere else my man, you won't make an inch of progress.

I've spent plenty of time working on my grandparents cattle farm when I was younger. I know how animals get treated under normal circumstances, and it's far from anything I saw in that video.

My biggest problem, however, is with the idea that these animals are bred to die almost immediately, and only for the purpose of making milk. The one week old calves are disposed of, they are not used for any other purpose. This is far removed from meat or dairy cows that live for years before being slaughtered, and their produce is put to good use and eventually consumed.

There is so much exaggerated cynicism being spouted in this thread that it seems to have clouded the original discussion.

Last night I had a lovely piece of steak, and I had some nice cheese with lunch today that tasted great (albeit from Europe). Those individuals who are against this video seem to have taken the direction of carnivores vs. vegans, without recognising the mass of grey area in between.

Almost all of us eat meat and animal products daily. This video highlights the way in which calves are born and bred for no purpose other than milk production. The implication is that this particular behaviour should stop, since the treatment of these calves is inhumane. There is absolutely nothing wrong with this message, and it is far removed from vegan propaganda. One must look at the argument with a bit of perspective instead of being so black and white about the whole process.

 

[moorey]

so, you've never found an ethical dilemma in any area of your life?

i was raised with the common "meat and two veg" diet, as a teenager decided to try vegetarianism after researching alternate sources of protein. i still don't believe meat is a sustainable way of using the environment, neither is broadacre farming, but i have no answers for either dilemma. i eat meat again now, after many years of not doing so, because i find it difficult to sustain the physical work i do and my riding without it.

so feel free to judge me without any background knowledge on my life or health issues....oh that's right, you already did.

Ease up turbo, lol, Live and let live. I was simply amused that you would show such outrage at someone commenting on enjoying meat, when you also eat meat.
Sorry if you believe I have judged you. Not my intention. Whatever choices you have made to accommodate you lifestyle, Go with it! If you have health issues, sorry to hear, do what works for you, both physically and ethically. :very_drunk:

 

[Mattydv]

What? There's a problem over here that's 50% bigger than the problem over there, so lets just disregard aforementioned problem and focus all our efforts on the latter?

Try that approach anywhere else my man, you won't make an inch of progress.

I don't think disregard altogether, but surely there's some merit in the argument for focusing energies on the worst problem?

My biggest problem, however, is with the idea that these animals are bred to die almost immediately, and only for the purpose of making milk. The one week old calves are disposed of, they are not used for any other purpose. This is far removed from meat or dairy cows that live for years before being slaughtered, and their produce is put to good use and eventually consumed.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but your argument seems to be stemming solely from the belief that the calves are disposed of, and used for no purpose. I'm led to believe that the week old calves are actually refined for a number of products, which Arete briefly touched on in his posts. Whilst the calves are not raised to be consumed, do you not believe that their use, in the production of various products used in society, would warrant the practice acceptable?

 

[NCR600]

What? There's a problem over here that's 50% bigger than the problem over there, so lets just disregard aforementioned problem and focus all our efforts on the latter?

Try that approach anywhere else my man, you won't make an inch of progress.

Actually, that's exactly the way you make progress. I make my living by identifying problems within a system, and while you make some gains by going after the low hanging fruit, going after the big issues is the way forward.

propaghanda is showing a little nativity.

I assume propaghanda is what is put out by animal-friendly, anti fascist, gay-positive pro-feminist punk rockers Propaghandi.

[video=youtube;QPDQ9ns_7Ds]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPDQ9ns_7Ds[/video]

One of the best live acts I ever saw in the 90's.

 

[moorey]

Been one of my favorite bands for 20 years, particularly awesome in that early 90's period. I saw them around the same time, In Richmond, Melb.
Spectacular gig:clap2:

 

[Oliver.]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but your argument seems to be stemming solely from the belief that the calves are disposed of, and used for no purpose. I'm led to believe that the week old calves are actually refined for a number of products, which Arete briefly touched on in his posts. Whilst the calves are not raised to be consumed, do you not believe that their use, in the production of various products used in society, would warrant the practice acceptable?

After doing some more research into the matter, I have realised that the original claims were misleading. The suggestion was that the calves were waste products, implying they weren't used for any purpose.

I've had a bit more of a look into it, and have received an email response after sending a letter to Dairy Australia.

They've clarified that the bobby calves are slaughtered for meat and other byproducts, and most are not 'waste products'. My apologies!

However, it appears that the main underlying issue is that they aren't treated to the standards that other animals are treated before slaughter. RSPCA seems to have a much better (and more balanced) perspective on the issue here:
http://kb.rspca.org.au/What-happens-to-bobby-calves_87.html

From what I can gather the age of the animals (being less than a week old) mean that the humane treatment of them is extremely difficult. From this implication I still think that this practice seems very unreasonable, but perhaps slightly less shocking than I had initially believed. RSPCA seems to be pushing for 10 days/two lots of feeding per day, but I must admit I would still rather have less milk and higher (wholesale) price of dairy to encourage reduced consumption, and humane treatment of dairy cows.

 

[Arete]

I would still rather have less milk and higher (wholesale) price of dairy to encourage reduced consumption, and humane treatment of dairy cows.

And soymilk production destroys Amazonian rainforest. Pick your evil.
http://www.mongabay.com/external/soybeans2003.htm

 

[Hew]

And soymilk production destroys Amazonian rainforest. Pick your evil.
http://www.mongabay.com/external/soybeans2003.htm

^^ This.

There are simply too many people in the world. Humans are supposed to live on natural supplies, just like other animals. We are part of a food chain, regardless of humanity or ethics. We fucked up our food web through over population and we got a bit too ahead of ourselves in terms of technology.


Long story short; grow, fuck, die. Get over it.

 

[moorey]

And soymilk production destroys Amazonian rainforest. Pick your evil.

I wont claim to know all the facts, but have you factored in the production output per acre, and the required recources per km in the soy V meat? Maybe its simply about picking the LESSER of the evils :tape:

 

[DJninja]

I think we've all discovered that the main problem in this milk issue is humans.

 

[jayjay3032]

Pffft if the cows were smart enough they'd milk themselves and sell us the milk at a tidy profit!

 

[Switch]

I think we've all discovered that the main problem in this milk issue is humans.

Yep, time for some soylent green.

 

[Arete]

I wont claim to know all the facts, but have you factored in the production output per acre, and the required recources per km in the soy V meat? Maybe its simply about picking the LESSER of the evils :tape:

Given that dairy =/= meat, the argument is something of a strawman, but I'll bite anyway:

Soybeans are a pretty environmentally nasty crop no matter which way you spin it. Given dairy is - rather by necessity sourced locally and therefore not going to be responsible for continued land clearing, and particularly not in the tropics.

It's true that energy efficiency decreases as you go up trophic levels (which is why we have trophic pyramids), hence a kilo of meat requires more energy input than a kilo of grain or vegetable matter. However, in terms of nutritional content, they aren't equal. If you look at nutritionally equal vegetarian/vegan and meat meals, There is often a larger land area requirement to produce the vegan option, particularly when compared to intensive meat production and especially where feed for those animals is generated from a substance which is otherwise a discarded byproduct.
This is intensified when you look at organic produce. Organic production is, by default, lower yield per area than intensive production, which means more land area per unit of produce. Added to that is the fact that often this produce is handled in small volumes, which means more transport and process in cost per unit in terms of money and carbon production.

While organic/vegan food is kinder to the domestic animals involved, probably better for you and in many cases tastes better than intensively farmed food, it generally costs more because more resources are required to produce it. This makes it a more environmentally costly way to nourish yourself - it's essentially a first world luxury in a world where half of the 7 billion people on the planet don't get enough food. If we all moved to a diet of lower productivity requiring more land per person to feed us the net environmental outcome is unequivocally negative.

That's not to say that there aren't severe and pertinent environmental issues with meat and intensive farming (rice in the Murray Darling anyone?) but fertilizers, pesticides and transgenic crops aren't always environmentally evil and can, used the right way, be extremely environmentally beneficial.