Fast Vets.....

akashra

akashra

Eats Squid
24alpha said:
Ok, what are Vets thoughts on this:

In Victoria we have some really talented and very fast Vets. So much so that there is a massive devide in times between those fast guys and the "also ran" weekend warriors.
Should there be 2 categories of Vets riders? Vets & Vets B or should those really fast guys be made to step up? Some of these guys have times that would podium/place top ten in Elite or Expert.
We have some Elite riders that are over 30, some Expert riders that are over 40. These guys ride in classes above the age because they a fast enough and want the challenge.

So should riders that qualify by age be made to step up? Should there be 2 categories of Vets? Or should there just be status quo? What's it like in other states?

I'd like to hear from really fast Vet riders as well. Especially if you're at the top of state.

Hux
Click to expand...
Okay, lets's clear a couple of things up.

First, Expert is *NOT* for all ages. The rules explicitly state that it's for riders aged 20-29 - it was created when Sport started getting fields over over 150 back in I think it was 1994. This way the not-quite-elite fast older guys had a category, and the not-quite-elite fast younger guys had a category. The unfortunate thing is that the series and race directors have become lax at enforcing this ruling. Sandbaggging is not just related to Sport and Expert riders.

Second, the rule book states for XCO the expected race completion time for winning riders. For Elite and Expert this is 2:00-2:15, for Veteren Men this is 1:30-1:45.
Quite simply, if your lap times make it such that you would complete the Veterens race, expected to be one to two laps less than Elite and Expert Men, in less time than the Veterens target, but on time with the Elite target, then you should be racing Elite. Riders should be racing the same categories in XCO as in all other race formats.

We had a problem in 2008/2009 where a heap of guys raced the State XCO series in Elite, but then went and did the whole National series in Expert. Poor form, hurts the sport, etc. The simple fact is that unless people are forced, they will ride as low a grade as possible. When you remove the ability for people to self-seed, the problem will go away.


Secondly, Veterans (and pretty much all categories in Victoria, for that matter) isn't big enough to justify a category split, in all but some Marathon events. I would see that the absolute minimum number of entries before splitting a category would need to be 25-40, preferably on the high side.
In the Nationals for example, you've had one guy who goes out and smashes Veterens, and then goes and rides Sport in the XCC races. Now *that* is poor sportsmanship.

Last, while I have put my hand up to offer a system to manage it, none of the Victorian clubs are interested in doing a state or national grading system, which would allow for your CSV style Vets 1/Vets 2 like they have Masters 1/2/3. I already have the ability to take everyones time from any race they do and grade them, which we use for handicaps at Westgate Park on a regular basis to great success (eg, the handicap two weeks ago put 60 riders within a two minute spread over 50 minutes - which on a 1.8km track with limited passing is about as close as you're going to get). We can use this kind of thing right across the state to give the system you ask for - but it doesn't work if the event orgs have no interest.

We've also discussed a state/national plate system that gives a ranking, but for everyone else it's in the too hard basket.

You will notice that for the 2011 Victorian Enduro Series I have fought hard for the introduction of the Veterens Men category in the Solo Mens field. With an average field of 60 solo Male riders, and 20 of them already getting their own category of Masters Men, it was simply unfair that the younger and slightly younger riders had to race for 30th place. The stats were showing that it's about equally distributed, and the young guys deserve their opportunity too - so in 2011 you will have Expert Men, Veterens Men, and Masters Men. These will all form part of Elite Men.
I hope this encourages the 17-29 riders and 30-39 riders to make the switch to Solo.

For what it's worth, the 2010 XCE State Champion (Phil Orr) raced in what is the Veterans age bracket.

People who know me know my stance on sandbagging: It is the lowest form of unsportsmanlike behavior in any sport, and is essentially cheating.

Oh, and FYI: Because of the way the rules work, next year in the National series, I'd have to race either Sport, Elite, or Veterans, as I turn 29.
 
2

24alpha

mtbpicsonline.com
akashra said:
Okay, lets's clear a couple of things up........Snip............Oh, and FYI: Because of the way the rules work, next year in the National series, I'd have to race either Sport, Elite, or Veterans, as I turn 29.
Click to expand...
Hi Akashra,

Thanks very much for the feedback. As I race DH, everything you mentioned here doesn't apply to me and the other old dudes that race DH. But as this is not style specific, thanks for making those points. I was hoping the VDHS race organisers would have taken my requests and rolled with it, but I believe they just forgot.

As far as someone sandbagging, I believe having a Vets A & B in downhill in Vic will allow those fast older guys the chance to pull back a bit and race where they feel comfortable without ridicule from people suggesting they are sandbagging. I'd also like the chance to race against guys my age that are as fast or slow as me and are around the same level. At the moment that is just not happening.

Cheers

Hux
 
akashra

akashra

Eats Squid
A potential solution could be anyother option I've thrown forward in the past - you have a points system. If you have accumulated more than X number of points, you have to race V1. Otherwise you start in V2 by default.

eg, it might be 3, 2, 1 for 1st/2nd/3rd, anyone who has accumulated >2 points in V2 gets bumped into V1.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top