Electric Vehicles etc
- Thread starter Cardy George
- Start date
Fred Nurk
No custom title here
Nothing transport related makes sense for hydrogen. The conversion efficiencies from a financial perspective if nothing else make it a non-starter, the only way to make it cheap is to make hydrogen from fossil fuels (which is what is done now) and even with that one is better off just burning the fossil fuel instead of losing part of it's value to make hydrogen.
i.e. there's no way to make green hydrogen cheaper than the electricity used to make it.
Calvin27
Eats Squid
I think for commercial and freight the difference is the lifetime of EV vs hydrogen. Most accounts of hydrogen systems suggests that the tanks are rock solid and not very expensive relative to battery tech (i.e. not heaps of rare metals used relative to EV). There is practically no degradation for hydrogen systems and I would have no idea how long a an EV truck might last doing 10 hour trips daily with fast charging all the time. Not long would be my guess, which is why they would almost have to do slow charging with interchangables which has it's own problems.
Th cost of electricity isnt really an issue either with solar PV still getting cheaper as we go on and feed in tarrifs falling off a cliff. Once the grid gets more renwable hydrogen can act as a great leveler for this energy either in the grid or on transport sector.
Fred Nurk
No custom title here
No on both counts.
Hydrogen leaks, and whilst the tanks are 'rock solid' the hydrogen still leaks out of them. Estimates for shipping of liquefied hydrogen (at great energy expense in addition to producing the hydrogen) are at about 1% loss per day. I was involved in a very small scale hydrogen energy storage platform as a replacement for batteries for remote installations some years ago. The capacity loss with purpose built hydrogen cylinders was at no point better than the battery loss of capacity, in general when we could get the plant to operate it was worse.
Cost of electricity is absolutely an issue, even if it's free there's still the balance of plant for compression and storage of hydrogen, not to mention at best electrolysis is about 70% efficient. The net effect of hydrogen's inefficiency in production and usage means it makes no sense to use hydrogen where electricity is possible, and this is at least partly supported in the lack of sales of hydrogen vehicles.
Why Hydrogen Will Never Be The Future Of Electric Cars
A decade ago, it seemed like there were two potential contenders to replace fossil fuel for personal transportation – electricity and hydrogen. So why haven’t hydrogen fuel cell vehicles taken off in the same way as battery electric ones, considering their refuelling convenience?
www.forbes.com
Calvin27
Eats Squid
About the same order of magintude for EV batteries...? Leakage shouldn't be an issue for long haul freight. But in any case I was referring to the lifetime of the systems. I cannot see a daily charged EV battery lasting long enough for commercial needs.
Comes down to the balance of hydrogen generation vs EV battery supply cost. I guess that's anyones guess, but for me the scarcity and global supply chain issues doesn't fill me with confidence we can just keep buying our cheap batteries out of china indefinately.
Fred Nurk
No custom title here
Given that fuel cell cars still need batteries, albeit not quite as large as a BEV, then it's not really a solution to avoiding supply chain issues.
Scotty T
Walks the walk
Hydrogen is bullshit as per Fred's comments. It is a real shame the fossil fuel companies have convinced governments and punters otherwise.
Batteries are generally good for 300-500k km. Then can be used for low power situations for several more years. Then broken down and recycled to yield more ore than the original dirt that was dug up to make it.
Fred Nurk
No custom title here
Green hydrogen as a replacement for the fossil fuel manufactured hydrogen currently used to make fertiliser and other such products is a great use.
Using it to burn or as an energy carrier for fuel cells and so on is not.
Haakon
greenbean counter
Exactly. Its an expensive energy carrier, use it on high value uses where alternatives are not available. BEVs are easy and cost effective, and now charge quickly - FCEVs are an expensive answer to a question that is no longer relevant.
i'll try that on the way down, hopefully a little less busy early morning. annoyingly the one at mittagong tourst info centre is only open 930-430 as you have to go in to ask for a key. bit more digging says I can top up on a evie charger at campbelltown on the way back if things get desperate.
tried asking the client if there's any outdoor power point. 6-8 hours on a regular socket would be plenty and i'd happily knock if off the invoice for convenience. The way they scoffed suggests they dont realise you normally just plug these in like any appliance.
Scotty T
Walks the walk
Tesla killer?
thedriven.io
BYD Atto 3 test drive: A game changer and not in ways we expect it to be
The Atto 3 delivers what a ground-up EV is supposed to – at a price getting close to what people pay for ICE cars. Here's how it changes the game in Australia.
thedriven.io
Haakon
greenbean counter
No, but complementary. Tesla will still sell as many as they can make so not a tesla killer. But these will sell like hotcakes as well.Tesla killer?
BYD Atto 3 test drive: A game changer and not in ways we expect it to be
The Atto 3 delivers what a ground-up EV is supposed to – at a price getting close to what people pay for ICE cars. Here's how it changes the game in Australia.
Of course its a fucking SUV so it can die in a ditch for all I care, but its sedan sister car looks good. As does the MG4 thats on sale in the UK already.
blacksp20
Likes Bikes and Dirt
Under $50k drive away. These will sell well.Tesla killer?
BYD Atto 3 test drive: A game changer and not in ways we expect it to be
The Atto 3 delivers what a ground-up EV is supposed to – at a price getting close to what people pay for ICE cars. Here's how it changes the game in Australia.
beeb
Dr. Beebenson, PhD HA, ST, Offset (hons)
Even despite the comedically shit (and Australian-specific) warranty clauses. At least it sounds like the battery should be reliable, so they might go on to second lives in other applications.
silentbutdeadly
has some good things to say
Now here's some thinking that's along the lines of what I've been thinking about EVs... basically most of the current crop of EVs are potentially too much of a handful for your average driver.
GoAuto Oddspot: Low performance drivers…
The latest GoAuto car news from GoAuto, Australia's most respected automotive website,
www.goauto.com.au
downunderdallas
Likes Dirt
Tend to agree here, that MG4 above has a dual motor variant just released in China with apparently 450HP and potentially under $60K - I think much cheaper to make a powerful electric motor compared to comparable ICE. Haven't let my 17 yo behnd the wheel of the Tesla yet albeit it's probably considerably safer that the Kingswood I learnt to drive with.Now here's some thinking that's along the lines of what I've been thinking about EVs... basically most of the current crop of EVs are potentially too much of a handful for your average driver.
GoAuto Oddspot: Low performance drivers…
The latest GoAuto car news from GoAuto, Australia's most respected automotive website,www.goauto.com.au
downunderdallas
Likes Dirt
Decent MTB van
Scotty T
Walks the walk
Can you lock it to chill mode for the kiddy winks? I'm thinking of having that feature in my conversion if I can.
Meanwhile, your leftover chilli crab could be the next power source:
Crab and lobster shells could be used to make renewable batteries
Prototype designed using chemical in crustacean shells remains 99.7% efficient after about 400 hours
www.theguardian.com