Dumb, drunk and racist?

[rednightmare]

Thanks for clearing that up. I would really like this thread to be topical and informative. Most of all, informative and open. Unlike the ugly hole that racism has carved in many societies. We can prove here, on this site via this thread, that mountain bikers are good people.

I would love to share your optimism but I have heard enough casual racism in the mountain bike scene to suggest that mountain bikers aren't any different than the wider Australian population. That said, like you, I'm all for a sensible, open and frank discussion on here. In many ways, I think it would be good to hear from some people who do hold racist views on here in the hope that a discussion about racism would give cause to reflect and hopefully change ways. Not sure if it's going to happen though...

Third episode of 'Dumb, Drunk and Racist' airs tonight at 9:30 on ABC2.

 

[Shredden]

Watching it now this shit is so so so fucking stupid. Yeah, dressing a bunch of Indians up in helmets and bulletproof vests, walking around the CBD and showing them videos of indians being bashed is a great way to show the experiences of indians living in Australia. This presenter is a supreme fuckhead and should have his nuts removed.

Awh yeah sick lets go find crazy people and introduce them to crazy people in the CDB, not like you would find crazy people IN ANY OTHER CITY IN THE ENTIRE WORLD.

The guy who stabbed Nitin Garg should have stabbed the dick presenting this shit.

Ps indianz shud go bak to wher thay cumd from

 

[PINT of Stella. mate!]

Whilst racism is always a divisive issue, it is still often a two-way street. After all, how can these Indians expect to be met warmly when they still haven't apologised for what they did to General Custer!

 

[Elbo]

I do stereotype people until they have proven they are not the stereotype. Should i be ashamed of this attitude?

No, I don't think so. Humans categorise everything, that's part of the reason racism and prejudice exists everywhere, its the consequence of something we all do (and of some lingering pseudo-scientific study of 'savages' and application of evolutionary theory by colonialists). There are many stereotypes, for example:
- Aboriginals are dole-bludgers
- Jews are miserly.
- Black people are violent.
- White people are racist.
- Indians are scammers.
- Australians are dumb, drunk and racist.

Without broad stereotypes, we wouldn't be able to make sense of the world around us, there'd be too much information to process. And wherever there are 2 or more groups of people, they will always try and differentiate themselves from one another, particularly if they aren't really that different to the outside observer. For example, Swedish and Norwegian are very similar languages, and they are largely mutually intelligible, but ask any Swede if they are the same and they'll completely deny it, Norwegian is totally different and they'll probably say it sounds terrible as well. Differences only matter if they are socially relevant and they become socially relevant because they tend to unsettle ideas about identity and authenticity of existence of particular groups of people. So I think stereotyping (they are like this, but we are not like that) has a lot to do with maintaining a stable sense of group and individual identity, and being more efficient in interacting with unfamiliar people.

I think the problem with Australia's racism, is that its closely tied with a sense of nationalism and identity. Its not just about skin colour or the belief that particular people are inferior to others. I'd argue that racism for racism's sake is pretty scarce these days, the greater issue is that people have associated particular 'races' as being opposed to their sense of national identity and therefore see others as a threat to their identity, culture, authenticity and heritage. If you can make the differences less socially relevant and remove the link between being white = being Australian, I think the 'Australians are racist' stereotype would largely fade away.

[/anthropologist voice]

 

[Knut]

Good post Elbo.

As far as optimism goes: this sport of ours essentially is in our own hands. We can gain a reputation of being accepting, fair and aware of our environment. Social and cultural environment is what I mean

There was a time when Wild and Outdoor magazine used to hold mountain bikers in a very negative light. In fact, there were pages of anti-bike editorials,letters and columns. This has completely reversed now. We together as a group have displayed that we do care about our natural environment and are prepared to protect and maintain it. Building legal and sustainable trails has the same people who once were trying to ban us completely from National Parks to holding us as the future of park users, sometimes viewed as a steady resource. We changed the views of some very rigid minds.

We can do that with our views on racism. We can let the sporting community know that they are accepted in mountain biking, regardless. We can also stand together and prevent those who want to cause trouble from attempting to deteriorate the good work done.

 

[Trigger02]

whilst racism is always a divisive issue, it is still often a two-way street. After all, how can these indians expect to be met warmly when they still haven't apologised for what they did to general custer!

ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!!!!

We are not perfect but at least this does not happen
http://www.smh.com.au/world/blasphe...n-to-death-senior-officer-20120705-21i5y.html

 

[workmx]

Nice explanation, Elbo.

Even though I am a sociologist, I was refraining from going there. That is because it can be easy to think stereotyping is okay, once we realise that all humans (actors) always already categorise information about other humans (actors and groups of actors) into typical types (typifications).

Below is a short version of Berger and Luckmann "The Social Construction of Reality" - the seminal work on these processes.

Here is a way to think about it:
a. all humans categorise information about other humans into types (business men are like this, pastors do that...);
b. that process can be called typification;
c. social life would not be possible without that typification;
d. social life is solidified as social reality through this continued typification and the reinforcement of typifications.
e. typifications are always a starting point for social interaction;
f. typifications can and are often modified by social interaction (especially where they are challenged).

On the other hand stereotypes (typifications that are chiefly negative and tend to be more rigid) are usually much harder to modify. Sociological research has found that stereotypes not only reinforce themselves (through cognitive dissonance and group think) but also only tend to change where the person holding them interacts positively over long periods of time with people that they hold stereotypes about.

Typifications tend to be experiential: "I have learned that people like this, tend to do that."

Whilst stereotypes tend to be moralistic: "I think that people like this, are good/bad and do good/bad things."

Typifications are one of the many sociological phenomena that create and solidify social reality. They is a social fact not a moral stance.

Conclusion: Just because we have to typify does not mean it is okay to stereotype.

 

[Ridenparadise]

25% of Australians were not born in Australia. That would imply a complete lack of racist intent as a nation. However, just like the birds in my area, pressure of competition causes what birds see as their right to protect territory while humans see it as a selfish and uncaring, racist attitude. It isn't that at all.

The Indians et al may not be moving into your sunroom, but you would think something like that was happening thanks to our dickhead media glorifying and exaggerating news to the point that people feel pressure they really don't need to feel.

Seems to me that unless you are a minority, you are racist these days. It's a label handed out too easily and one that is used aggressively by groups looking to enhance their own standing.

At least one thing is certain - everyone is a bogan these days.

 

[steve24]

ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!!!!

We are not perfect but at least this does not happen
http://www.smh.com.au/world/blasphe...n-to-death-senior-officer-20120705-21i5y.html

the Americans think they have the right to lock up Australians (and many others of course) they suspect of being a terorist without proof for years. We do little to stop it happening.....

 

[workmx]

the Americans think they have the right to lock up Australians (and many others of course) they suspect of being a terorist without proof for years. We do little to stop it happening.....

The American Government (in particular the CIA) use a program that lock up terror suspects in countries where, the CIA beleives that USA and international legal safeguards do not apply.

You are right to say that this has happened to one Australian that we know of: Mamdouh Habib.

 

[steve24]

The American Government (in particular the CIA) use a program that lock up terror suspects in countries where, the CIA beleives that USA and international legal safeguards do not apply.

You are right to say that this has happened to one Australian that we know of: Mamdouh Habib.

David Hicks.....

 

[Trigger02]

Julian Assange

 

[workmx]

the Americans think they have the right to lock up Australians (and many others of course) they suspect of being a terorist without proof for years. We do little to stop it happening.....

The "without proof" part is certain for Mamdouh Habib. Not for David Hicks. There is plenty of proof of activites that the CIA would consider "terrorist".

As for Assange, there is no reliable proof, yet, that there is a sealed Grand Jury indictment against him. There are doubts about the reliability of the Stratfor correspondence on this.

 

[Trigger02]

Stratfor, CIA undercover lol ... How do they know more about mexico than mexico does lol

 

[PINT of Stella. mate!]

The "without proof" part is certain for Mamdouh Habib. Not for David Hicks. There is plenty of proof of activites that the CIA would consider "terrorist".

As for Assange, there is no reliable proof, yet, that there is a sealed Grand Jury indictment against him. There are doubts about the reliability of the Stratfor correspondence on this.

As far as Assange's case in the US goes, 'proof' isn't an issue, it's all out in the open about how wikileaks obtained classified material from Bradley Manning and subsequently published it. Whether they could make the charges of espionage stick however is a different story. Remember Freedom of Speech is enshrined in the US Constitution, Assange has never once worked for the US Goernment or Armed Forces and as such has never signed any confidentiality agreements nor has he been within US borders at any time since Wikileaks was established.

If Assange were to be successfully prosecuted, every news outlet, blogger and PC-owning member of the public who'd since copied and/or forwarded any of the wikileaks cables would also be guilty of 'espionage' and the US would be obligated to seek prosecution.

Don't get me wrong, I know that the US Government would love to get a hold of him and create a big show trial but I still hold out hope that the entrenched freedoms in their constitution that they so often love to harp on about would prevent this from ever becoming a reality.

 

[Mywifesirrational]

Most of the people i know and grew up with are auzzie, Hardly any are white, speak other languages and some are even muslim but were born in Australia, we are all racist and pay out on each other but only dopey fuckwits hate.

I actually think that's the Australian way, I always have racist banter with my 'ethnic' friends, they give as good as they get. No one is offended and it's not malicious.

But at the same time, if anyone is offended by what's said, it is racism, whether it was meant to be or otherwise.

I don't feel that Australia is an overly racist country, but we certainly have a racist element. I wonder how many people think we are racist due to how somewhat unique humour of 'taking the piss' out of each other?

No easy solution for racism, the Greeks and Italians coped it pretty bad decades ago, they took it on the chin, worked hard and got respected.

 

[Elbo]

Nice explanation, Elbo.

Even though I am a sociologist, I was refraining from going there. That is because it can be easy to think stereotyping is okay, once we realise that all humans (actors) always already categorise information about other humans (actors and groups of actors) into typical types (typifications).

Conclusion: Just because we have to typify does not mean it is okay to stereotype.

Thanks guys, I was coming from an anthropological viewpoint, so I'm glad it made sense to people other than me.

That's true, and a good conclusion workmx. Just because we categorise everything (and categorising people is often most easily done by 1. appearance and 2. behaviour) doesn't mean that we can excuse certain actions towards others based on those categorisations we make.

 

[my02]

Don't feed the troll...



Curious to know how offensive you (or anyone else from the UK) find 'pommie' comments. Obviously it depends on how it's used, but I've almost always heard them used in jest (often in reference to sporting matches) with harmless intentions. Same goes for jokes about Kiwis. I've always thought that we share enough of a common cultural and racial background to take the piss out of each other without causing offence.

Not at all. I don't think I've ever been offended by its use but to be honest, the delivery has either been in the form of an obvious gag or its been from some thick twat that wouldn't have a clue how to string together three words to hurl a decent insult.

 

[livingthedream]

I don't think Australia is particularily racist, however people are worryingly racist.

This is based on a lifetime of seeing racist grafitti in every toilet block, on every construction site, in every language, in every corner of the world that I've worked.

The one consolation I have is that the more racist the grafitti the more likely it is to have glaring spelling mistakes.

 

[Knut]

You would have to wonder if the new show on tv called "The Shire" is a cheap shot at the people from the shire from stereotyping antagonists. Either way, it looks lame as. I will give it three episodes before it is blown off.