Does the environment affect your purchasing decisions? ie paper vs plastic

Squidfayce

Squidfayce

Eats Squid
Tubbsy said:
Did you make a heartbreaking decision not to have kids you really wanted so those who do will have a better life?

Or did you never want kids anyway but are keen to let us all know?
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On the balance of things, it doesn't really matter, does it?
 
cokeonspecialtwodollars

cokeonspecialtwodollars

Fartes of Portingale
Stredda said:
Technically if you want the best bang for buck for the environment it's taking yourself out of the equation and for bonus points creating some sort of virus that takes the rest of us out too ;)
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I've actually struggled with this for a long time, so much so that it has become my rhetoric, I'll never advocate for doing nothing but everyone should understand that anything you choose to do on a personal level has approximately zero impact on the final outcome and at best merely lets you sleep with a clear conscience. Who decides when you've done enough, who decides when your bit is done, because whenever you think you've done all you can there is still plenty more to do. You can go full martyr and yeet yourself off the planet and it won't make a lickin' difference unless several million people follow suit.
 
Stredda

Stredda

Runs naked through virgin scrub
cokeonspecialtwodollars said:
I've actually struggled with this for a long time, so much so that it has become my rhetoric, I'll never advocate for doing nothing but everyone should understand that anything you choose to do on a personal level has approximately zero impact on the final outcome and at best merely lets you sleep with a clear conscience. Who decides when you've done enough, who decides when your bit is done, because whenever you think you've done all you can there is still plenty more to do. You can go full martyr and yeet yourself off the planet and it won't make a lickin' difference unless several million people follow suit.
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Your are right that just one person won't make a difference but I don't see that as a reason or a deterrent to not do anything, because if everyone has that same opinion, of course nothing is going to get done. Sometimes you need to show leadership and step up and do your bit, with a bit of luck some people will follow you.
I certainly don't live the perfect environmentally responsible lifestyle (otherwise I would have dispatched myself years ago) but I try to reduce my impact as much as practical and I feel that if enough people do the same, it does make a difference.

I see the same things with trail working bees I run. There's a lot of riders out there and I know that most of them know that the working bee is on, but it's a small percentage that turn up to work on the trails. Still, that small percentage makes enough difference. I could quite easily say fuck it, I'm just going to go for a ride instead of fixing the trails and have a whine that the trails are shit and "someone" needs to do something about it. (BTW I've seen this quite a few times and these people never show for a build themselves)
Congratulating and supporting people and businesses for having a go, no matter how insignificant is the key. Teaching your kids to think about their impacts as it's their future world goes a long way too.
 
yuley95

yuley95

soft-arse Yuley is on the lifts again
slimjim1 said:
Yep, no more plastic bikes for me #steelisreal.

Someone mentioned PNW…have two rainiers that came in cardboard packaging, online only manuals, easily user serviceable and not disposable (reverb). The v1 would have well over 10,000kms on it and still runs mint. Needs to be more of this.
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Unfortunately it's not available to us in Australia but they also have a dropper recycling scheme I think. You send them back your old PNW dropper and they refurbish it and sell it cheap.

I know they are just a business at the end of the day but 've got a lot of time for PNW.

Not sure what their policy is on having kids though so might have to look into that and make sure they made the ultimate sacrifice...
 
Squidfayce

Squidfayce

Eats Squid
Stredda said:
Your are right that just one person won't make a difference but I don't see that as a reason or a deterrent to not do anything, because if everyone has that same opinion, of course nothing is going to get done. Sometimes you need to show leadership and step up and do your bit, with a bit of luck some people will follow you.
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I get the sentiment, but IMO, in reality even if you get 50 people to follow you, unless the change you're implementing is material enough to make a actual difference, you're just wasting 50 peoples time. We already have hundreds of thousands, if not millions of people doing the right things, doing things that are practical, leading the way locally and in communities. Aaaand we're still heading in the wrong direction. I dont think the majority is wholesale deterred to do the right thing.

The leadership needs to come from the government level, needs to be large scale, absolute and the change needs to be mandated. none of this e-car tax, solar credits and other piece meal bullshit - remove the barriers, make access cheap, give better incentives, penalize ignoring those incentives and subsidise those that genuinely cant afford to take part (like installing solar on every roof of every person who genuinely cant pay for it themselves).

Perhaps if one (any) government actually made meaningful change, other governments would follow.
 
Squidfayce

Squidfayce

Eats Squid
yuley95 said:
Not sure what their policy is on having kids though so might have to look into that and make sure they made the ultimate sacrifice...
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Haha. I don't begrudge people having kids, I just don't think most people equate the act with the lifetime impact on the environment. I see virtue signaling around this all the time. "i recycle, i have solar, i drive a tesla", "yes, but you have 5 kids".
 
Tubbsy

Tubbsy

Packin' a small bird
Staff member
I find 'virtue signalling' a particularly intellectually vacuous concept, but it was exactly what you were doing earlier with your no kids boast if you want to present arguments in this way.

FWIW I fully agree with the point that more children, Western ones in particular add a buttload of emissions.

But let's not pretend that choosing not to have kids is any kind of notable achievement.
 
Squidfayce

Squidfayce

Eats Squid
Tubbsy said:
I find 'virtue signalling' a particularly intellectually vacuous concept, but it was exactly what you were doing earlier with your no kids boast if you want to present arguments in this way.

FWIW I fully agree with the point that more children, Western ones in particular add a buttload of emissions.

But let's not pretend that choosing not to have kids is any kind of notable achievement.
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;)thanks for noticing. I 100% was, in a not so subtly ironic way. I'm not having kids because I don't want them, but i will bring it up in environmental discussions to see what sort of reactions i get. Like i said before I don't think many people relaise the impact of having kids has on the environment over their lifetimes. The two concepts are disassociated from each other enough that people all too often forget the bigger picture - like does what packaging your hub come in really matter (or even all the packaging for all the bike parts you will ever consume in your lifetime)? Conceptually, sure, realistically not really.
 
Stredda

Stredda

Runs naked through virgin scrub
Squidfayce said:
I get the sentiment, but IMO, in reality even if you get 50 people to follow you, unless the change you're implementing is material enough to make a actual difference, you're just wasting 50 peoples time. We already have hundreds of thousands, if not millions of people doing the right things, doing things that are practical, leading the way locally and in communities. Aaaand we're still heading in the wrong direction. I dont think the majority is wholesale deterred to do the right thing.

The leadership needs to come from the government level, needs to be large scale, absolute and the change needs to be mandated. none of this e-car tax, solar credits and other piece meal bullshit - remove the barriers, make access cheap, give better incentives, penalize ignoring those incentives and subsidise those that genuinely cant afford to take part (like installing solar on every roof of every person who genuinely cant pay for it themselves).

Perhaps if one (any) government actually made meaningful change, other governments would follow.
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You are definitely right in saying that governments are going to have the biggest effect with any change, but if the population don't support it, and the politicians don't see any gain in getting themselves reelected from pushing it, so it just doesn't happen. Same goes with consumerism, if the companies don't see any need from their customers to make an environmentally friendly product, then most of the time they won't do it either.
I do believe the responsibility is on everyone, because if no-one cares we are going to do down hill real fast.
 
Squidfayce

Squidfayce

Eats Squid
Stredda said:
You are definitely right in saying that governments are going to have the biggest effect with any change, but if the population don't support it, and the politicians don't see any gain in getting themselves reelected from pushing it, so it just doesn't happen. Same goes with consumerism, if the companies don't see any need from their customers to make an environmentally friendly product, then most of the time they won't do it either.
I do believe the responsibility is on everyone, because if no-one cares we are going to do down hill real fast.
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that's why i said it has to be mandated. the population will do what its meant to if they don't have a choice, or the consequences are detrimental to them financially, socially, or to their convenience etc.

Let say the govt started a "no solar" tax to be applied to all kWh of power consumed that wasn't self generated. That tax increasing exponentially over a period of say 10 years. But at the same time the govt also provided interest free loans for 10Kw solar + battery systems over a 10 year term. You would be stupid do keep paying the tax and not take up the incentive. Sure there would be some edge case exceptions, but the base idea make si much more feasible for people to take up solar on a large scale than the current scheeme.

What if garbage trucks were fitted with technology to weigh the contents you're contributing to landfill. You could tax homes according to consumption/waste generation. then perhaps, what packaging stuff comes it does become relevant to the average person.

Personal responsibility doesnt stop just because the govt takes over. see above. We just need better way to point a finger and say "hey you, we're giving you the tools and resources to make a difference and youre still being the a dick! not cool, youre gonna pay for that".
 
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Stredda

Stredda

Runs naked through virgin scrub
Squidfayce said:
that's why i said it has to be mandated. the population will do what its meant to if they don't have a choice, or the consequences are detrimental to them financially, socially, or to their convenience etc.

Let say the govt started a "no solar" tax to be applied to all kWh of power consumed that wasn't self generated. That tax increasing exponentially over a period of say 10 years. But at the same time the govt also provided interest free loans for 10Kw solar + battery systems over a 10 year term. You would be stupid do keep paying the tax and not take up the incentive. Sure there would be some edge case exceptions, but the base idea make si much more feasible for people to take up solar on a large scale than the current scheeme.

What if garbage trucks were fitted with technology to weigh the contents you're contributing to landfill. You could tax homes according to consumption/waste generation. then perhaps, what packaging stuff comes it does become relevant to the average person.

Personal responsibility doesnt stop just because the govt takes over. see above. We just need better way to point a finger and say "hey you, we're giving you the tools and resources to make a difference and youre still being the a dick! not cool, youre gonna pay for that".
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Oh the libertarians with their "freedoms" won't like that type of commy speak. lol
 
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