Winning National Rounds on a non-DH specific bike?

castillo

Likes Dirt
Yeah, look. Shit track or not, its about getting out there and meeting people and going fast. Who cares what you're on.
Course-wise, Australia is never going to be Europe. Fucking DUH, this is AUSTRALIA. We aren't real hilly and thats just facts, man. This is what makes the world championships interesting - diversity in courses. Maybe there does need to be some game liftedin course design, but it sounds to me like there needs to be less internetting and more riding.
 

SideFX

Likes Bikes and Dirt
4x races have bike regulation, so should DH races . Amile would shit if he came up against a BMX at a 4x race .
It would be good to be in the position to adopt the : RIGHT EQUIPMENT FOR THE JOB : dribble , but not every one is sponsored and has the access to abundant MTB resources . Its a DH race isn't it ?
In regards to the giant rein as a dh bike , i dont think so . The bike out of the box would not be a suitable dh race bike and would need drastic mods . So why would you ? It would be a very expensive short life dh bike .
 

castillo

Likes Dirt
Hopefully DH doesn't get to be as regulated as other forms of cycling, this is largely part of its appeal to me.
 

thecat

NSWMTB, Central Tableland MBC
4x races have bike regulation, so should DH races . Amile would shit if he came up against a BMX at a 4x race .
It would be good to be in the position to adopt the : RIGHT EQUIPMENT FOR THE JOB : dribble , but not every one is sponsored and has the access to abundant MTB resources . Its a DH race isn't it ?
In regards to the giant rein as a dh bike , i dont think so . The bike out of the box would not be a suitable dh race bike and would need drastic mods . So why would you ? It would be a very expensive short life dh bike .
MTNx is the two out of three

gears, suspension, 26inh wheels pick at least 2.

Ameils bike fit that...

No way should we regulate that you have to have a $5K bike to race DH.

Just because the Marketeers say you need 8" to DH doesn't mean you do.

If you only have the funds for one bike a 8" travel DH rig is a bit of a silly choice anyway. Wouldn't a 6-7" travel do it all bike be better value in the situation?

When I first started racing I did DH, Enduros and XC on an early model giant AC 2. It suited me for 2 or 3 years until I got the funds to buy a dedicated XC and DH bike and is still going strong for my little bro

Run what you brung and don't whinge.

I mean what will be next "The guy that won was using custom valving in his shocks! I can't afford that! Lets regulate that you can only use an off the shelf "brand X" shock without adjusting it"?
 
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toodles

Wheel size expert
Ignoring the bike that the winner rode, which is an excellent tactical choice to anyone who has several bikes available to them, I think the discussion needs to focus more on the style of the track.

National Rounds seem to be assigned more on a first-come, first-served basis than anything else. I'm not familiar with the inner workings of the selection of tracks for our National calender, nor the WC series, but I'm of the opinion that it is certainly not DH riders who do the decision making.

Obviously there's more to holding a race than simply having a hill - infrastructure, facilities, accomodation, etc all every bit as vital. Unfortunately, the best tracks I've seen in Australia aren't necessarily the best venues for major races. In the end, there's not an unlimited number of clubs putting their hand up for a Nats round so the organising bodies select what's on offer.

On a side note, anyone who thinks downhillers are soft for hating uphill sections needs to familiarise themselves with the UCI-designated criteria for a downhill race. Technical ability, not fitness, is what should decide a DH race. Fitness is an obvious advantage, but a race outcome that is predominantly decided by technical ability is what the regulations specify.
 

thecat

NSWMTB, Central Tableland MBC
The selection is simple.

If a club/group/organisation wants a round they submit a application to MTBA.
I'm not in the inner loop having gone through the process a couple of times MTBA takes all the applications to the committee, which includes the rider reps, and tries to work out what will be best for the series as a whole.

This means 1)trying to avoid having it all in NSW/Qld every year

2)At the moment they have a strong focus on venues/clubs that can do all disciplines at once which significantly reduces the costs

and

3) often there's not many applications to pick from so they got with what they get.
 

SideFX

Likes Bikes and Dirt
MTNx is the two out of three

gears, suspension, 26inh wheels pick at least 2.

Ameils bike fit that...

No way should be regulate that you have to have a $5K bike to race DH.

Just because the Marketeers say you need 8" to DH doesn't mean you do.

If you only have the funds for one bike a 8" travel DH rig is a bit of a silly choice anyway. Wouldn't a 6-7" travel do it all bike be better value in the situation?

When I first started racing I did DH, Enduros and XC on an early model giant AC 2. It suited me for 2 or 3 years until I got the funds to buy a dedicated XC and DH bike and is still going strong for my little bro

Run what you brung and don't whinge.

I mean what will be next "The guy that won was using custom valving in his shocks! I can't afford that! Lets regulate that you can only use an off the shelf "brand X" shock without adjusting it"?
No , no reg on valving ore speck ,just geo of the frame . It was a dh race wasn`t it ? There should be some level playing field and regs . The rain is a light weight am bike ! If you wont to race a AM bike , go to a AM race !
 

trav

Likes Dirt
4x races have bike regulation, so should DH races . Amile would shit if he came up against a BMX at a 4x race .
It would be good to be in the position to adopt the : RIGHT EQUIPMENT FOR THE JOB : dribble , but not every one is sponsored and has the access to abundant MTB resources . Its a DH race isn't it ?
In regards to the giant rein as a dh bike , i dont think so . The bike out of the box would not be a suitable dh race bike and would need drastic mods . So why would you ? It would be a very expensive short life dh bike .
You should do a bit more research,it was a Reign X (out the box)that won the race not just a Reign.These are two very different bikes.
 

alchemist

Manly Warringah MTB Club
Perhaps the UCI should just bring in a minimum bike weight in like they have for road, track & cross. To be eligible to enter a race your bike must be weighed in a the start, if it is less than 18.73 kg it's ineligible - doesn't matter whether you're a 146cm 42 kg chick or a 195.3 cm 120kg bloke. That's got to be the fairest way. (If you're bike is too light just drop old chain links down the seat tube)
 

indica

Serial flasher
Perhaps the UCI should just bring in a minimum bike weight in like they have for road, track & cross.
How would that help?
Then only Rennie would win - ie big bloke with big legs.

And how does that make it fairer?
It is like the whole skin suit thing again ... people should be allowed to ride what they want and wear what they want.
Good on Amiel for winning, and good on the boys for building a great track on all they were allowed to.
Sure we'd like a track on Mt. Macedon, but Parks won't let us.
 

alchemist

Manly Warringah MTB Club
How would that help?
It doesn't, but if people want rules to define what is a DH bike then the've got to be pretty simple to scrutineer.

The thing that has been great about mountain biking (and why we've seen it progress so far) is that there are no silly rules about what constitutes a mountain bike (the MTNX rules are an Australian abomination). Start making rules about what geometry a bike can have and what clothes you can wear (oh hang on we have...) and we'll loose a lot of freedom that we all enjoy with our racing.

I'm with the cat - run what yah brung.
 

Timbers

Likes Dirt
The bike out of the box would not be a suitable dh race bike and would need drastic mods . So why would you ? It would be a very expensive short life dh bike .
Buddy you are stretching it their! Tires and a single ring/ guide was all mine needed to do literally hundreds of runs at You Yangs in the 12 months I had a Reign X, with no reliability issues at all, and as for those saying to ride an "ALL Mountain bike you should go and do an "ALL MOUNTAIN" race? YOU YANGS is just a tad closer than the Mega Avalanche in the Alps or Pipeline in Colorado.

I have said it before on this thread, suck it up! and do some training! just because Mummy and Daddy buy you a new V10 and flashy latest season kit does not mean you are fast!
 

toodles

Wheel size expert
This means 1)trying to avoid having it all in NSW/Qld every year
I dunno about the other disciplines, but most DH rounds are in VIC and NSW. QLD has only had one DH round per year AFAIK, (except maybe a Illinbah/Cairns double) and has missed out altogether a few times. Obviously WA, SA, TAS, etc get the real short end of the stick having only had a few Nats rounds between them. Not arguing, just saying.

2)At the moment they have a strong focus on venues/clubs that can do all disciplines at once which significantly reduces the costs
Yeah, it's a shame there's only a few places that have good tracks for all disciplines.

3) often there's not many applications to pick from so they got with what they get.
That's probably the main point IMO. Until we get a heap of bike parks all hungry for publicity/money we're reliant on clubs and volunteers doing the hard work for little reward.
 

toodles

Wheel size expert
It doesn't, but if people want rules to define what is a DH bike then the've got to be pretty simple to scrutineer.
On that note, I'm still amazed we get by with so little scrutineering at DH races. BMX has way stricter requirements than we do.
 

S.

ex offender
This thread has gone off on a pretty wack tangent IMO - who cares what the rider's bike is like? The point is that bikes SPECIFICALLY designed for DH racing weren't the best choice for this track, which means that the bike isn't the issue, the track is. To reiterate this point, if you designed a bike specifically for racing downhill and a bike that was designed also to go UPHILL by somewhat compromising its descending ability was faster down a particular "downhill" track than the DH-specific bike... what would you be thinking?

All that aside, it's really not that big a deal. If you don't like it, don't race it, there are plenty of other races on plenty of other tracks that you can do instead.
 

Gekigengar

Likes Dirt
I thought the analogy of using the Anthem for DH was more stating the fact that 10 years ago DH bikes had less travel and even skinner travel and maybe worse geo ( i actuallly don't know about geo ), yet they still raced it. We are not trying to say you can't ride Anthem on a DH course, it is more the fact that there are more suitable bikes out there and on some tracks a full 8 inch DH rig is not really necessary.
 

Pete_10

Likes Bikes and Dirt
2)At the moment they have a strong focus on venues/clubs that can do all disciplines at once which significantly reduces the costs
I think this is where the not so good DH tracks turn up. Not ragging out on any mountain bike parks(these really are the venues helping the sport and opening it up to everyone) but when a major event is held there they seem to be the ones with the DH tracks that people disagree with. Maybe it's the cost cutting, maybe its the accessibility to cities or just the fact they are trying to please everyone? I don't know, but they certainly aren't what I would consider national round worthy anyway, likes it been said great for a trundle but not a national round.

I think the national series should show what a DH can be, showcase our best riding we have to offer, something not manufactured, something raw and most of all downhill. But at the end of the day money talks.

To all the shit people are talking about bikes, that's exactly what it is, shit. That is the best part about our sport, you can turn up with your bike, whatever it is and have a good time. No one needs to take that away.
 

Le Matelot

Canberra Off-Road Cyclists
"Decisions are made by those who show up."

That's really the hub of the discussion (see the end of this post for some more explanation).

I think this is where the not so good DH tracks turn up. Not ragging out on any mountain bike parks(these really are the venues helping the sport and opening it up to everyone) but when a major event is held there they seem to be the ones with the DH tracks that people disagree with. Maybe it's the cost cutting, maybe its the accessibility to cities or just the fact they are trying to please everyone? I don't know, but they certainly aren't what I would consider national round worthy anyway, likes it been said great for a trundle but not a national round.
AFAIK, we don't really have any venue in Australia that is perfect. Courses, event village, accommodation, transport, organisation all need to come together for it to be perfect - and they don't. Remember, we are talking about a MTB event, not a DH event, so its courses for XCO, XCC, DHI, 4X and Trials.

You could also easily make the case that "this is where the not so good XC tracks turn up". Think back a few years to when the XC riders were planning to boycott XC races held at Thredbo because the XC course there was a disgrace - but he DH course was good :)

I think the national series should show what a DH can be, showcase our best riding we have to offer, something not manufactured, something raw and most of all downhill.
That may well come down to whether its a DH series or an all-discipline series. Currently its very expensive to put on single discipline series with all the support arrangements that MTBA require. A single discipline series becomes less of a spectacle because you don't get the larger crowds and rider numbers that having all disciplines at the one event brings. These big numbers are what draws media attention, which attracts sponsors, which is what our sport needs to grow.

So, where are the venues which can "show what a DH can be" and why haven't they put in bids? "Decisions are made by those who show up."

National Rounds seem to be assigned more on a first-come, first-served basis than anything else. I'm not familiar with the inner workings of the selection of tracks for our National calender, nor the WC series, but I'm of the opinion that it is certainly not DH riders who do the decision making.
The sport organising bodies make the decision. MTBA for the Australian National Series and National Champs, and the UCI for the World Cup and World Champs. Both of these bodies have rider input.

Obviously there's more to holding a race than simply having a hill - infrastructure, facilities, accomodation, etc all every bit as vital. Unfortunately, the best tracks I've seen in Australia aren't necessarily the best venues for major races. In the end, there's not an unlimited number of clubs putting their hand up for a Nats round so the organising bodies select what's on offer.
Yep - for the current National Series of 5 races, there were only 6 bids. So, it really became a process of eliminating the worst one bid, rather than selecting the best - if you get my drift. For the next 3-year package of National Champs, there are only 2 bids.

So, there is really hardly any room to move in the decision making process - something which is a cause for concern in itself IMHO.

The selection is simple. If a club/group/organisation wants a round they submit a application to MTBA. I'm not in the inner loop having gone through the process a couple of times MTBA takes all the applications to the committee, which includes the rider reps, and tries to work out what will be best for the series as a whole ... often there's not many applications to pick from so they got with what they get.
It was President Jed Bartlett from The West Wing (well, Aaron Sorkin, really) who said, "Decisions are made by those who show up." Now, I'm not a very good rider and I've gotten worse over the last few years but one thing that going to mountain bike races for nearly a decade has taught me is that it is very hard to win a race if you don't enter it ;)

Similarly, its really difficult for your favourite track or venue to be awarded a round of the National Series if no one puts in a bid :) When it comes to getting a World Championships, there are a whole heap of factors that get considered before the decision is made by the UCI. Yes, you have to have courses, but you have to have a whole load of other things as well. The best XC, DH or 4X track in the world is no use if hardly anyone can get to it.

Timing is also an issue. Originally CORC bid for the 2008 World Champs but then the UCI said that the 2008 World Champs would be brought forward to June because of the Olympics. That would have put it in the middle of a Canberra winter, so we immediately deferred our bid to 2009.

Some might say that places like Thredbo or Buller have DH tracks suitable for a World Cup round, but remember they also need to have XC and 4X tracks too. The there is the other minor point that for most of the time of year the UCI runs the World Cup, Thredbo and Buller wound be under snow :cool:
 
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adman

Likes Dirt
Challenging tracks like Illinbah and Hobart are the tracks we should be using for the Champs and Nationals.
Yeeew! Can't wait for the Hobart Nationals... we've got some bloody fast people down here! Infact, several guys in our 19's could have got in the top 2 of the elites... it's going to be a ripper!
 

Dug

Likes Dirt
Simple fact you cannot please all the people all the time... OK

Have you ever heard people complaining of how rough a track is... I have at state rounds more than once.. HTFU it's Downhill.

Rider skill goes beyond just driving the bloody rig down a hill at full tilt. Bike setup and selection is a part of racing Well done for the insight to think outside the box. ..... What box if you ask me..

Props...

JMHO

Oh Yeah

The rain is a light weight am bike ! If you wont to race a AM bike , go to a AM race !
No The rain makes the track slippery, morning or arfternoon... ( am or pm):p
 
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