The election thread - Two middle-late aged white men trying to be blokey and convincing..., same old shit, FFS.

[pharmaboy]

Look at the various security intrusions made into our private lives over the last 17 years...the erosion is real I don't doubt it.

Should the government tax cyclists or cease taxing alcohol and cigarettes?

Excise is a legitimate taxation, perhaps differential excise on alcohol is not so legitimate, ie taxing hard spirit different from wine different from beer different from alco pops. There is no logical reason to tax cycling different from any other activity, and remembering that making something illegal is not at all the same as taxing it. I'm not convinced that the extra taxes on cigarettes and alcohol do anything to decrease the use of same.

 

[pharmaboy]

Try being a law abiding gun owner - every time some crim does the wrong thing there's a kneejerk reaction to come down harder on people who already jump through a shitload of hoops to pursue their lawful sport.

And as detailed above, the public don't care about the affected innocent minority, and swallow the line that laws that affect law abiding folk somehow stop criminals.

Remember that the gun laws changed in response to guns being used against innocents - the potential, indeed the fact that they impact on people's actual ability to live their life - it's not a trivial thing, but there is a balance between a right to own a gun and the right of someone else not to be killed by one?

Ultimately, the different states seemed incapable of actually enacting and enforcing appropriate gun restrictions, so that was taken over by the federal govt, since that horrrifc attack and the ones before we have had none while the bastion of the free seems to have a mass murder with firearms every other month.

Btw, one of the biggest changes from firearm controls has been less suicides - an easily available firearm in a moment of weakness is too successful at ending ones life.

Undoubtedly, gun owners pay a price, and the beneiftters of that are innocent people who no longer grieve a suicide, or get shot in a workplace. The gun owner who is not a crim, experience tells us, can suddenly become a devasting one with the leverage of damage that a firearm supplies.

I don't deserve the right to drive drunk or run red lights for the same reasons of risk to innocents

 

[pink poodle]

How did you like Japan?

It was wonderful. Their zero alcohol behind the wheel and strictly enforced rights of the pedestrian provide some very safe roads. Cyclists appewr to ride on the footpath with other pedestrians in almost every situation...

There is a growing push in the snow world for the wearing of helmets. Regular talk around the way of making them compulsory on the slopes. Some ski fields are making them compulsory for staff, in the terrain parks, and for minors. Some travel insurers won't cover you if you aren't wearing a helmet too. These are private enterprises pushing compulsory helmets, not a government. Though there are some governments getting in on the act too. I'm sure we will soon see police on snow issuing fines, if there is money to be made... Outside of Australia and New Zealand snow is generally softer than concrete.

 

[pink poodle]

I'm not convinced that the extra taxes on cigarettes and alcohol do anything to decrease the use of same.

There may be a negligible downward impact, but I'm pretty sure the taxes on cigarettes and differentiated alcohol (eg alcopops) are about raising revenue discussed as helping people out. Pokies probably fit in this category too. NSW is quite reliant on those taxes, they wouldn't want them to disappear.

 

[golden path]

Undoubtedly, gun owners pay a price, and the beneiftters of that are innocent people who no longer grieve a suicide, or get shot in a workplace.

Do you perchance watch the news? EVERY day there are gun crimes in our capital cities, handguns in particular it seems, despite these having been the most restricted guns of all since we had gun laws. And all of this while we have the tightest gun laws affecting law abiding folk, ever.

The gun owner who is not a crim, experience tells us, can suddenly become a devasting one with the leverage of damage that a firearm supplies.

And more laws won't stop that.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for a certain level of gun control, but serial law breakers and the illegal gun trade are in the too hard basket and so attention is turned to sport shooters and hunters and the public are no safer.

TBH, I think the sheeple are starting to realise that, too.

 

[John U]

TBH, I think the sheeple are starting to realise that, too.

I don't think you'll find many people that aren't shooters who agree.

Why do you think the gun laws are too tight? What would you like to see available to gun owners?

 

[golden path]

I don't think you'll find many people that aren't shooters who agree.

Why do you think the gun laws are too tight? What would you like to see available to gun owners?

TBH, I think hunters should be able to own semi automatic and pump action shotguns and .22 rifles, for hunting, as they could pre 1996.

Banning these things was used as a platform to be seen to be doing SOMETHING.

The irony at the time was, I had to hand in my semi auto .22 bunny rifle (not concealable) but was free to keep my semi auto .22 pistol (concealable) and would have been free to buy (and still would be) a 9mm semi auto handgun.

I can well recall the two foot high pile of permits to acquire for new guns, to replace the ones handed in, on the RFO's desk at the local cop shop. People handed those guns in, and replaced them with something else, often something quite similar.

I agree with a lot of what we have - it is annoying (but not surprising.....) however to see the limp wristed sentences handed out to criminals who use firearms, given what shooters were threatened with in 1996 and also 2000.

Recently in Victoria, an attempt was made to increase gun dealer license fees by 500%, along with a similar increase in the cost of junior permits - clearly both moves were aimed at shutting dealers, and dissuading young people from getting into the sport. What did either do for public safety, or to stem illegal gun violence?

Nothing - and happily neither move got up.

The recent media driven furore over the Adler shotguns was another beatup. Lever action shotguns having been around since the 1880's, and already in common existence here.

The Adler with the 7 shot mag will now be classed at Category D - the same as an AR15 assault rifle FFS....

 

[pink poodle]

TBH, I think hunters should be able to own semi automatic and pump action shotguns and .22 rifles, for hunting, as they could pre 1996.

Banning these things was used as a platform to be seen to be doing SOMETHING.

The irony at the time was, I had to hand in my semi auto .22 bunny rifle (not concealable) but was free to keep my semi auto .22 pistol (concealable) and would have been free to buy (and still would be) a 9mm semi auto handgun.

I can well recall the two foot high pile of permits to acquire for new guns, to replace the ones handed in, on the RFO's desk at the local cop shop. People handed those guns in, and replaced them with something else, often something quite similar.

I agree with a lot of what we have - it is annoying (but not surprising.....) however to see the limp wristed sentences handed out to criminals who use firearms, given what shooters were threatened with in 1996 and also 2000.

Recently in Victoria, an attempt was made to increase gun dealer license fees by 500%, along with a similar increase in the cost of junior permits - clearly both moves were aimed at shutting dealers, and dissuading young people from getting into the sport. What did either do for public safety, or to stem illegal gun violence?

Nothing - and happily neither move got up.

The recent media driven furore over the Adler shotguns was another beatup. Lever action shotguns having been around since the 1880's, and already in common existence here.

The Adler with the 7 shot mag will now be classed at Category D - the same as an AR15 assault rifle FFS....

What type of hunting do you do that would require such a weapon?

 

[John U]

Is an Adler calibre like a 410? Would an operator of a lever action be able to kill a number of people?

I can see why they banned semi-auto's and pump action shot guns. If you walked into a crowded location you could kill/maim a bunch of people quickly. Bolt action or double barrel not so much.

Pistols need to be locked up at a club unless you're using them for work right? So if you bought a 9mm semi auto hand gun it would live at the pistol club?

 

[golden path]

What type of hunting do you do that would require such a weapon?

The same we did all those years before 1996 - pigs, ducks, rabbits and other vermin.

Is an Adler calibre like a 410? Would an operator of a lever action be able to kill a number of people?

I can see why they banned semi-auto's and pump action shot guns. If you walked into a crowded location you could kill/maim a bunch of people quickly. Bolt action or double barrel not so much.

Pistols need to be locked up at a club unless you're using them for work right? So if you bought a 9mm semi auto hand gun it would live at the pistol club?

An Adler fires the full size, common 12g shotgun round. The operator of any firearm would be able to kill a number of people. FYI, the .410 shotgun round is also quite deadly, at close range...

Any common hunting rifle or shotgun could be used to kill or maim a bunch of people - the Adler (and the other lever shotguns of which there are a handful, the media never mentioned.....) is no more deadly than any other modern firearm.

Lever action shotguns were designed in the 1880's, and various modern versions have been in use here for donkey's years. And blood didn't flow in the streets because of them.

The 5 round Adler will still be just as easy to buy under a Cat B license, apparently two more shots make the 7 round one into a death machine along the lines of a 20 round assault rifle though.

Pistols - pistol shooters keep their guns at home, in safes as required by law.

Yep, that's the way it's always been and somehow very few of these tens of thousands of handguns have been used by pistol shooters to commit mass murder or other violent crimes.

 

[Fortius]

Is an Adler calibre like a 410? Would an operator of a lever action be able to kill a number of people?

I can see why they banned semi-auto's and pump action shot guns. If you walked into a crowded location you could kill/maim a bunch of people quickly. Bolt action or double barrel not so much.

Pistols need to be locked up at a club unless you're using them for work right? So if you bought a 9mm semi auto hand gun it would live at the pistol club?

All legally owned firearms need to be locked up, I don't know if any states require pistols to be locked at the club but I doubt it, seems a central location for easy theft. In NSW all arms must be locked in a proper safe which unless over 250kgs must be dynabolted to the wall and floor. All of this can be at home and details of which are provided to registries, and routinely inspected by local police.

 

[golden path]

A I don't know if any states require pistols to be locked at the club but I doubt it, seems a central location for easy theft.

Crims rolled a gun shop over in WA just the other day.

I myself blame the law abiding victim.... :whistle:

 

[pink poodle]

The same we did all those years before 1996 - pigs, ducks, rabbits and other vermin.

All the big game...

I'd thought the Adler issue was the number of bullets it carries (which you've also mentioned being 7) rather than it being lever action. If you need more than 5 shots to kill a rabbit the issue may not lie with the way the government has stomped all over your gun rights...

 

[golden path]

All the big game...

I'd thought the Adler issue was the number of bullets it carries (which you've also mentioned being 7) rather than it being lever action. If you need more than 5 shots to kill a rabbit the issue may not lie with the way the government has stomped all over your gun rights...

The problem with discussing these issues with a non shooter, is the non shooter often doesn't understand what hunters get up to and what goes on away from the TV set.

It's not about shooting one rabbit five times. It's about shooting five different ones, one after the other. Or a mob of pigs. For pest destruction and feral animal shooting, more rounds equals greater effectiveness.

In any case, I'm happy enough with my five shot Adler.

They're ok for a cheap gun, and thousands more of them and the other equivalents will be legally purchased and cause no issues.

Apart from media fuelled hysteria and a few sweaty panty gussets among people who don't really know what they're talking about.

 

[Kerplunk]

All the big game...

I'd thought the Adler issue was the number of bullets it carries (which you've also mentioned being 7) rather than it being lever action. If you need more than 5 shots to kill a rabbit the issue may not lie with the way the government has stomped all over your gun rights...

The issue is also the 5 tound adler can be modified easily.
http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2016-...gh-capacity-adler-shotgun/7368138?pfmredir=sm
It's the sort of behaviour of the bloke in the above link that does legit gun owners no favours.

 

[golden path]

The issue is also the 5 tound adler can be modified easily.
http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2016-...gh-capacity-adler-shotgun/7368138?pfmredir=sm
It's the sort of behaviour of the bloke in the above link that does legit gun owners no favours.

He wasn't popular with many on a hunting forum I frequent, and was made aware of it. Definite silly idea, and poking of the bear.

 

[pink poodle]

The problem with discussing these issues with a non shooter, is the non shooter often doesn't understand what hunters get up to and what goes on away from the TV set.

It's not about shooting one rabbit five times. It's about shooting five different ones, one after the other. Or a mob of pigs. For pest destruction and feral animal shooting, more rounds equals greater effectiveness.

In any case, I'm happy enough with my five shot Adler.

They're ok for a cheap gun, and thousands more of them and the other equivalents will be legally purchased and cause no issues.

Apart from media fuelled hysteria and a few sweaty panty gussets among people who don't really know what they're talking about.

Time was you'd have killed those beasts with your knife and spear. Sounds like the modern hunter has gone soft.

 

[golden path]

Sounds like the modern hunter has gone soft.

Like the 21st century mountain biker?

 

[pink poodle]

Like the 21st century mountain biker?

eeeeeeee-xactly.

In the scheme of things, when on the hunt a few small inconveniences (such as 2 less bullets or using a bolt rather than pump) can't truly be such a big inconvenience in exchange for the widespread safety that has come about? Howard's gun reforms is 1 of the 2 things from his time as pm that I think he got right. If we had the opportunity to hunt big predators like tigers, bears, t-rex, or moby dick then I would probably have a different view as to what seemed a reasonable gun. There are probably plenty of restrictions in place for the greater good that you enjoy the prosperity of at the expense of others.

People intent on doing bad things will still do their bad things. If they truly want a gun they be able to track one down. I'm sure plenty of devious people still carry a knife despite it being prohibited. It's easy enough to get a prohibited knife if you want one, or even make a dodgy home job yourself from a lawnmower blade. But reducing ease of access makes it that bit harder.

In NSW Malcolm Naden was on the run from the police for almost 7 years. During that time he was able to arm himself by stealing poorly secured guns and ammunition from remote properties. I'm not sure if he also stole dental hygiene equipment, I hope that he did. This tied up a lot of police resources in capturing him.

 

[golden path]

eeeeeeee-xactly.

In the scheme of things, when on the hunt a few small inconveniences (such as 2 less bullets or using a bolt rather than pump) can't truly be such a big inconvenience in exchange for the widespread safety that has come about?

By the same logic that same lever action or bolt action is only marginally less deadly than the auto, if someone was to go postal. Hmmm?

Is a ten shot bolt action high powered rifle less dangerous to public safety that a short range .22 semi auto bunny rifle or 5 shot semi auto pump shotgun?

Or a ten shot pump action high powered rifle - which is still perfectly legal?