The Death Penalty

johnny

I'll tells ya!
Staff member
Again, however, the mistake is expecting anything else from the media.

The media is not a measure for anything other than the depths of opportunism. The last thing the media is is a collective moral compass of society.


However, the FB trends, twitter trends, etc. that you/Norcs has pointed at are a much better measure of the social climate.
 

Rob_74

Likes Dirt
Again, however, the mistake is expecting anything else from the media.

The media is not a measure for anything other than the depths of opportunism. The last thing the media is is a collective moral compass of society.


However, the FB trends, twitter trends, etc. that you/Norcs has pointed at are a much better measure of the social climate.
The media dishes up what they think will appeal to the masses.

these executions have and are being discussed everywhere -for example rotorburn. (I havent seen any threads on domestic violence.) it is a topical subject so of course you going to get massive media coverage and so feeds the circus
 

johnny

I'll tells ya!
Staff member
Is it in the media because we are discussing it or are we discussing it because its in the media?

A Constant debate in media studies whether media reflects us or we reflect the media. Whip up frenzy and people will buy in.
 

pink poodle

気が狂っている男
The media dishes up what they think will appeal to the masses.

these executions have and are being discussed everywhere -for example rotorburn. (I havent seen any threads on domestic violence.) it is a topical subject so of course you going to get massive media coverage and so feeds the circus
Do they? Or are they a cultural driver? Pushing an agenda onto their audience...I would suggest they are a little of both, but predominantly they are trying to shape the thinking and behaviour of the masses. But we don't like conspiracy stuff.
 

indica

Serial flasher
(I havent seen any threads on domestic violence.) it is a topical subject so of course you going to get massive media coverage and so feeds the circus
Start one if it means that much to you.
I take issue with the death penalty, sure I think peds should be shot but will that actually help anything? No.
It's a joke that the Indo government will execute Australians for trying to take drugs out of their country while claiming it helps the problem there. The government in Indonesia and the Judicial system there is incredibly corrupt.
The used to be an ecstasy factory in Kerobokan prison FFS.

How many of you would be happy for your kids to be executed if they had made a range of mistakes that led them to make the shitful choices that these people did?
 

DMan

shawly the least hangeriest guy on rotorburn
How many of you would be happy for your kids to be executed if they had made a range of mistakes that led them to make the shitful choices that these people did?
I feel for the families but no one forced them to TRAFFIC a shitload of drugs into a country that clearly has the death penalty for drug trafficking. I don't think you can call something this planned a range of mistakes or a shitful choice.
 

scblack

Leucocholic
Again...., they were taking the drugs OUT of Indonesia.
So what?

Either way it is creating and/or supporting the drug problem in Indonesia. An Indonesian group of people manufactured those drugs. They set up their own manufacturing facility, created the distribution network and escaped the authorities to move those drugs around. Call it the drug infrastructure if you like.

Do you imagine now that these two drug smugglers have been killed, that the guys who manufactured the drugs are sitting on their arses, or going to be satisfied farming rice? No, now they lost a couple of Australian distributors, they are going to continue to make more, and now need to offload it, and that's likely to add more to the streets of Indonesias cities.

Whether drugs are being sold into or out of a country, it is still a big issue for that country.
 

pink poodle

気が狂っている男
So what?

Either way it is creating and/or supporting the drug problem in Indonesia. An Indonesian group of people manufactured those drugs. They set up their own manufacturing facility, created the distribution network and escaped the authorities to move those drugs around. Call it the drug infrastructure if you like.

Do you imagine now that these two drug smugglers have been killed, that the guys who manufactured the drugs are sitting on their arses, or going to be satisfied farming rice? No, now they lost a couple of Australian distributors, they are going to continue to make more, and now need to offload it, and that's likely to add more to the streets of Indonesias cities.

Whether drugs are being sold into or out of a country, it is still a big issue for that country.
So you are saying Indonesia is pro small business, or against it?
 

johnny

I'll tells ya!
Staff member
Yeah, I get what you're saying but I just see people repeating wrong stuff all the time.

Another one that gets me is people constantly saying "people forget that these guys are drug smugglers". The fact that people are constantly saying this means exactly that people haven't forgotten the fact and the people repeating this line are either ignoring how many times it's constantly stated by politicians and people in the media and even in this thread that what they did was bad, they should be in prison but execution after 10 years and signs of rehab is not the way to go.

People have their biases on this issue and I think there is very little that can be said by either side that will change anyone's mind.


And regarding the manufacturing of drugs in Indonesia; that rarely happens without the involvement of the police, the military and often local level officials. The most famous "drug club" in Jakarta is very, very widely known as the cops' turf. So no, they won't be turning to rice farming after they've executed these 60 odd people they have on their books.
 

Sic

Likes Dirt
So what?

....Do you imagine now that these two drug smugglers have been killed, that the guys who manufactured the drugs are sitting on their arses, or going to be satisfied farming rice? No, now they lost a couple of Australian distributors, they are going to continue to make more, and now need to offload it, and that's likely to add more to the streets of Indonesias cities.....
SO by that logic the Indonesian government would have been better off letting them leave the country.

The money they've paid for the smack gets to stay in Indo and the drugs leave. All your left with is a supply chain that deals with overseas distributors rather than feeding the smack problem in Bali. Win win!
 

stirk

Burner
Apparently an Indonesian drug trafficker who was suspected of supplying the drugs to the 9 was killed in a shoot out with Indonesian police so I think the police got to keep the drugs and the money.
 

foxpuppet

Eats Squid
Tongue in cheek here, but couldn't they have spun it around to say they were helping Indonesia's war on drugs by removing the heroin from the country.

Edit: I see this was already alluded to. Nothing to see here
 
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I've definitely scope for the application of judicial executions & the death penalty under common law, but I do feel it's a sentence that should be reserved for extreme cases where irrefutable evidence exists that acts were carried out with what civilised society would deem to be fundamentally evil with horrific intent i.e. pedophiles; rapists; murderers, the serially violent & predatory; architects & executors of violent ideological extremism on domestic shores etc.

For the most part I do absolutely believe that everybody makes mistakes & deserves a second chance where tangible demonstrations of reform exist.

There's no denying that when you travel aboard, first & foremost, you're subject to that country's laws & as such if you know the special on the menu is capital punishment then it's hard to be too sympathetic if you roll the dice & find that through misinterpretation you've ordered the firing squad instead of the nasi goreng.

With that said the Chan & Sukumaran situation is one that troubles me for a variety of reasons well beyond Indonesia's application of the death penalty. It was a macabre & intentional display of political posturing towards Australia by Indonesia & a very misguided bit of global grandstanding- done as much for Widodo's own supporters as for the carriage of Indonesian justice & law. All from what was a very silly piece of perceived gift-hampering of the Bali 9 (& delivered by the AFP) to Indonesia by Australian politics in the first place. Sadly these two lads were 100% political fodder & they were never going to stand a chance, despite being guilty of their crime under Indonesian law. And given the tangible levels of reform (& reported benefit to the prison system) by Andrew & Myuran in their 10yrs of incarceration, I certainly don't believe they deserved to die. It was a judicially, politically & morally corrupt state of affairs. Did they deserve life in an Indonesian prison? Possibly & I'd consider that to be a reasonable sentence considering the crime. Not death.

The disparity of sentencing in Indonesia (as with other countries) is really crazy messed-up, but when you add in the multi-tiered levels & degrees of corruption & influence (political, financial, judicial, ethical, social, & even ideological) from the administration through to those who uphold law, well it's up there as far as particularly tough systems to reasonably & fairly navigate go. Hence why I also feel for mentally ill Brasilian Rodrigo Gularte & the miscarriage of justice carried out against him, & chances are the other 5 who were also executed alongside Andrew Chan & Myuran Sukumaran.

Most of all though, it's their families & loved ones I feel for the most. Really poor decisions made with catastrophic outcomes & burdens left to bear through no fault of their own.
 
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pink poodle

気が狂っている男
Apparently an Indonesian drug trafficker who was suspected of supplying the drugs to the 9 was killed in a shoot out with Indonesian police so I think the police got to keep the drugs and the money.
Hmmmmm....shoot out...again at the mercy of media outlets, but the way I read it he was gunned down by police who knew him and it was a rather suspicious scenario. But who knows the truth?
 

floody

Wheel size expert
This is not personal ok, it's just I've seen these exact points of view repeated all over the joint and I think they are bunk.

- i do, however, have to grudgingly respect the sovereign law of other countries. i do NOT have a right to tell them how to hand down their laws.
Well no actually, no we do not have to grudgingly respect the absolutely ridiculous 'sovereign law' of other countries, it is perfectly fair to put pressure on everyone, everywhere to change things that are unjust. Indonesia's political and legal structures are fundamentally rotten and they must be brought to account on a wide range of issues. They are in an ideological slide to extremes of conservatism and theocracy which began with Sukarno's authoritarian regime and greatly accelerated under Suharto.
Indonesian women cannot divorce or inherit equally. Polygamy is legal. Their occupations of West Papua (ongoing) and East Timor are artifacts of corruption and imperialism. They are right up there with Malawi and Albania for legal responsibility and accountability, vis a vis corruption.
As a close neighbour, significant trading partner and aid benefactor we as a nation should be pushing the hard questions on Indonesia and strongly encouraging other nations to do so.

There are other nations we should do the same to on various issues, certainly.


but whilst the media frenzy weeps and moans over those two men, 34 women so far this year have died at the hands of their partners - and the media silence is deafening.
The silence isn't deafening, it's in every newspaper, on every newscast, there is an immense amount of chatter and fuzz about domestic violence. As there should be. It's a different type of issue, a much more specific and individual one. On another point, I don't know if every family riven by domestic violence will want their story subsumed into the cult of public grief.
 

johnny

I'll tells ya!
Staff member
Yes, I missed that point.

- i do, however, have to grudgingly respect the sovereign law of other countries. i do NOT have a right to tell them how to hand down their laws.
Even if those laws are female genital mutilation, the stoning of women adulterers, the imprisoning of female rights campaigners and the denial of women's right to drive a car?

You grudgingly respect those laws and don't feel a moral compellence to speak out against these laws?
 

pink poodle

気が狂っている男
I see we are having a bit of "maybe there are cases here this sort of punishment would be suitable for..." moment.
 

johnny

I'll tells ya!
Staff member
I think Australians underestimate and look down on Indonesia. They're projected to be a top 20 economy in 20 years. They're the 4th largest country by population in the world. They're our closest neighbour. Yet we treat them like shit.. Asylum seekers, this debacle and live cattle export are all relatively tiny issues that have destroyed what could be an incredibly lucrative partnership with a growing economy.

While the government should attempt to assist Australian nationals in trouble overseas (though DFAT have recently been reducing assistance for Australians who knowingly get themselves into trouble). We should have abandoned helping these guys months ago in an attempt to patch a shaky relationship and improve our relations with indonesia. Particularly considering they had a new president. But we've totally fucked it now, and Abbott will probably do something stupid to appease the brainless masses and pull our ambassador or something..
Just wanted to circle back on this and point out how little this will do to harm long-term relations. Yes, it will harm the Australian general public's opinion of Indonesia but not so much our diplomatic, trade, defence, security, etc. ties with them.

In the below article (and other similar pieces out there) note how Marsudi was quick to acknowledge the importance of Australia to Indonesia and not say things like "We don't care if they withdraw the ambo, Indo will not be lectured to" and similar defiant statements. Also not the very conciliatory tone of the Indonesian ambassador and the readiness of Australia's representatives to respond favourably to a very rapid attempt to return relations to a positive footing.



Bali 9 executions: Abbott welcomes Indonesian ‘sympathy’
THE AUSTRALIAN 4:51 PM
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...onesian-sympathy/story-fn59nm2j-1227329721309
Andrew Burrell


A day after Indonesia executed the two men, dismissed Australia’s protests and angered the government with its poor treatment of their families, the statement by ambassador Nadjib Riphat Kesoema called for efforts to “rebuild this important bilateral relation”.

As the Greens called on Tony Abbott to consider expelling Mr Kesoema, the Prime Minister welcomed the comments as a sign that Australia’s relationship with Indonesia could be rebuilt.

“It’s a sign that decent people in Indonesia appreciate the anger that Australians feel at these cruel and unnecessary deaths, and it’s a sign that in time the good and strong friendship between Australia and Indonesia can be resumed,” Mr Abbott said in Canberra.

However the Opposition Leader was less sympathetic to Mr Kesoema’s words, saying Australians were “shocked” and “disappointed” at the executions of the heroin smugglers.

“Well I think the words are cold comfort, actually, to the families – well intentioned, no doubt, but too little, too late,” Mr Shorten said in Melbourne.

“We deplore the executions. I think for a lot of Australians those executions came as a shock. We got to know these two men over the last 10 years. They weren’t just names in the newspaper or one particular or a couple of families’ personal concerns; we got to know them.

“The executions … have shocked people. Australians are rightly disappointed at the inability of our advice to convince Indonesia to provide clemency.”

Foreign Minister Julie Bishop said the executions should be “deeply regretted”, but Australians should “seek to move on” from the diplomatic row.

“I’m aware of a number of Indonesian politicians, businesspeople, who were deeply disturbed by the events of the past week,” Ms Bishop said in Perth.

“It’s time for us to seek to move on. We will need to build relations at the government level, the people-to-people level, and I think that we need to look at the long-term future of the relationship.

“I spoke to the family members last night and they are devastated – and one can’t help but feel so deeply for what they are going through – but we must focus on the long-term relationship with Indonesia.”

Former Indonesian president Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono said today he cancelled a trip to Australia because it would have been “counterproductive” but he hoped the diplomatic storm could be overcome.

Dr Yudhoyono cancelled his appearance at today’s In the Zone summit in Perth, and even withdrew at the last minute from a plan to pre-record a video address to delegates attending the event.

But in a brief statement read by UWA chancellor Michael Chaney, he noted he had spent two presidential terms trying to elevate Australia-Indonesia relations.

“I hope the current disturbed relationship can be restored,” he said.

Under Dr Yudhoyono’s rule, the two men appeared to have been spared the death penalty.

Former Labor foreign minister Stephen Smith told the conference it was not appreciated that Australia’s relationship with Indonesia remained strong despite frequent tensions including this week’s executions.

“If you stand back from that and let the dust and emotion settle, from a relationship perspective the fundamentals in terms of institutional relations have never been better,” he said.

Mr Abbott, when asked about a report in The West Australian that Joko Widodo’s fierce political opponent Prabowo Subianto repeatedly offered to support an “indefinite” postponement of the executions, said it was “disappointing” that the world’s representations were not heeded.

He refused to say whether Australia had asked Mr Prabowo to make such an offer, saying the government “made every effort through official channels, through unofficial channels, publicly and privately to appeal to the better angels of their natures”.

Ms Bishop denied the Australian government asked Mr Prabowo to intervene.

Mr Joko, under pressure from his political patron, former president Megawati Sukarnoputri, ignored the Mr Prabowo’s offer of political cover, the report said.

“I don’t believe that those executions represented Indonesia at its best. I know Indonesia well, I have had the honour of meeting a number of very senior Indonesians over the years, I have great affection for Indonesia, I have great respect for the leadership of Indonesia, and this was not Indonesia at its best,” Mr Abbott said.

Mr Shorten, who supports the Coalition’s suspension of ministerial contacts with Jakarta and the withdrawal of Australia’s ambassador, said he had not read the report about Mr Prabowo.

Greens deputy leader Adam Bandt urged the government to consider expelling Mr Kesoema.

“We need to be very, very clear that the death penalty is not something that Australia supports and we need to take a strong stand,” the Melbourne MP told Sky News.

The Indonesians executed Chan, 31, and Sukumaran, 34, alongside six other drug convicts on Wednesday morning on Nusa*kambangan, the Central Java penal island.

The Australians were sentenced to death in February 2006 for their role in organising the *couriering of 8.3kg of heroin from Bali to Australia the previous April.

After all judicial attempts to save them were exhausted, Mr Joko refused them presidential clemency four months ago.

Mr Kesoema, who returned to Australia from Indonesia yesterday, said it was a “difficult and challenging period” for bilateral relations but insisted a good relationship was “very important for Indonesia” and he hoped personal, cultural, business and academic links could be drawn on to recover what Mr Abbott has called a “dark moment”.

“Indonesia understands the views expressed by the people and government of Australia on the law-enforcement measures taken against the two Bali Nine drug-smuggling ringleaders,” Mr Kesoema’s statement said.

“The Indonesian people and the government express our sympathies to the families and friends of the deceased.

“This is a difficult and challenging period for Australia-Indonesia relations.”

The statement struck a different tone from those of officials in Indonesia who sought yesterday to distance Mr Joko from the executions, claiming they were not the result of his executive decision, and from statements on Wednesday by senior Indonesian leaders that inter*national anger was a “momentary ripple” and they were unfazed by Australia taking the unpreced*ented action of withdrawing its ambassador.

Additional reporting: Phillip Hudson, Peter Alford







And I'd just like to point out that Bandt is being an opportunistic idiot on this point.
 
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