pink poodle
気が狂っている男
Do you think Tony Abbott will go to Indonesia to pullvthe ambassador? Or will the ambassador come home to receive the wristy? I don't think homosexual behaviour is well respected in indonesia.
The Death Penalty
- Thread starter indica
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Do you think Tony Abbott will go to Indonesia to pullvthe ambassador? Or will the ambassador come home to receive the wristy? I don't think homosexual behaviour is well respected in indonesia.
Not really. It's not like you're over-penalising some one to target others during sentencing. Law is made and part of that law communicates that if you break it there will be a high price to pay. That's the deterrence, not how that law is interpreted but that that law will be implemented.
I wouldn't use the media as a measure for anything other than sensationalism. I also wouldn't agree with your characterisation of the Aust govt on this. They've actually been very measured about it.
Ah, no, that's not at all the case. If East Timor didn't 'destroy' our future relationship, asylum seekers, cattle and executions sure as shit won't.
Jesus, and you reckon the media are overhyping things?! Nothing's fucked, dude. Also, the Australian constitution states that citizens overseas deserve the support of the govt. I'm pretty shocked to hear anyone say that Australian citizens should be abandoned. Stop and think about that for a minute, you're saying it's ok to sacrifice some citizens for the sake of others.
We've kind of been trapped. Jokowi is deliberately creating problems with other countries (mostly Australia) so he can then perform infront of his domestic audience as some one who will stand tough in the face of foreign (imperialist Europeanist) pressure in to internal matters. The announcement of executions on ANZAC Day, the transporting of Australian prisoners by special forces and fighter jets, the big media scrum at the prison today - these are all deliberate tactics for domestic political gain. Australia is very likely being provoked here for a response. That means we, as a nation, are being affronted. If we don't give a firm response we display weakness and future relations will be adjusted accordingly. If we do respond firmly we will be playing to Jokowi's song sheet; he'll just say "so what, our country and we will do as we please".
Problem for Australia is that we need Indonesia's cooperation as much as - or maybe more - than they need ours.
PINT of Stella. mate!
Many, many Scotches
In regard to all this talk of 'eye for an eye' and the like, I tend to look at all the countries that have the death penalty and they all -with the exception of Singapore* and Japan**- seem to be corrupt basket-cases with high violent crime rates (Yes America, you more than fit the bill here). So we can rule it out as being an effective deterrence.
As for the tangent into 'lets see who can get the angriest about paedos', I will happily admit to having no love for the c***s. I am more than aware of a lot of the outright abhorrent shit done by nonce pricks - and the devastating effect on their victims and I quite like the fact that I can still throw around terms like nonce, rock spider, kiddy-fiddler etc to describe them (and/or anything I find shit or displeasing) without ever being picked up by the Politically Correct police.
But.... the idea of 'wiping out' anyone who ever shows a disposition towards paedophillia strikes me as being a wee bit 'pitchforks and burning torches' and completely at odds with mature, rational behaviour.
The current methods of controlling the creepy nonce dicks (counselling, chemical castration, registers, moving them to a different parish etc.) might not be perfect but it doesn't mean we wont find a better way of managing this. Whereas on the other hand, declaring an instant fatwa on anyone who is unlucky enough to be born as a rock spider (I'm not sure many of them actually choose their horrid lifestyle) is only going to turn the many unreported-on nonces who do realise they have a problem and seek help before they harm anyone, into rabid fugitive fiends who are now faced with both an horrific sexual desire that they cant control and a death sentence if they ever attempt to seek help for it.
With that sort of dilemma, it's more likely going to be Goodbye 'kiddy porn stories on the internet'! (easily traceable - will lead to death sentence) and Hello 'might as well just kidnap and murder a kid because the dead ones don't talk'!
*Still technically a dictatorship, albeit a very clean and chaste one
** I absolutely love Japan and Japanese culture but they do still have issues and it's not just the recent admittance of live vivisection performed on POWs during the war. I mean, have you ever watched their porn!? :tape2:
As for the tangent into 'lets see who can get the angriest about paedos', I will happily admit to having no love for the c***s. I am more than aware of a lot of the outright abhorrent shit done by nonce pricks - and the devastating effect on their victims and I quite like the fact that I can still throw around terms like nonce, rock spider, kiddy-fiddler etc to describe them (and/or anything I find shit or displeasing) without ever being picked up by the Politically Correct police.
But.... the idea of 'wiping out' anyone who ever shows a disposition towards paedophillia strikes me as being a wee bit 'pitchforks and burning torches' and completely at odds with mature, rational behaviour.
The current methods of controlling the creepy nonce dicks (counselling, chemical castration, registers, moving them to a different parish etc.) might not be perfect but it doesn't mean we wont find a better way of managing this. Whereas on the other hand, declaring an instant fatwa on anyone who is unlucky enough to be born as a rock spider (I'm not sure many of them actually choose their horrid lifestyle) is only going to turn the many unreported-on nonces who do realise they have a problem and seek help before they harm anyone, into rabid fugitive fiends who are now faced with both an horrific sexual desire that they cant control and a death sentence if they ever attempt to seek help for it.
With that sort of dilemma, it's more likely going to be Goodbye 'kiddy porn stories on the internet'! (easily traceable - will lead to death sentence) and Hello 'might as well just kidnap and murder a kid because the dead ones don't talk'!
*Still technically a dictatorship, albeit a very clean and chaste one
** I absolutely love Japan and Japanese culture but they do still have issues and it's not just the recent admittance of live vivisection performed on POWs during the war. I mean, have you ever watched their porn!? :tape2:
redbruce
Eats Squid
"Yet we treat them like shit.. Asylum seekers, this debacle and live cattle export are all relatively tiny issues that have destroyed what could be an incredibly lucrative partnership with a growing economy"
That's your evidence, your saying these things are inconsequential compared to what? $$. Relatively, ethics, morality be dammed? (You are not serious, I hope)
"We should have abandoned helping these guys months ago in an attempt to patch a shaky relationship and improve our relations with indonesia. Particularly considering they had a new president. But we've totally fucked it now" (Indonesia starts with a capital BTW). So, these things are inconsequential compared to what? $$. Ethics, morality be dammed? (You are not serious, I hope)
The clear concern has been the death penalty (MWI posts not withstanding). The fact that the Bali 9 issue is contemporary is irrelevant, only topical.
"But we've totally fucked it now, and Abbott will probably do something stupid to appease the brainless masses and pull our ambassador or something.." History shows Tony doesn't need an excuse or a cause to do something stupid. Let's not guild the lily. I could be wrong, but, Ambassador won't be pulled.
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You know, previously I was against pulling the ambo. Now, I think we have to.
We either let the new president think he can push Australia around for domestic political benefit or we can show him (well, Megawati to be precise) that there will be consequences.
Neither are good options but one is clearly worse than the other.
We either let the new president think he can push Australia around for domestic political benefit or we can show him (well, Megawati to be precise) that there will be consequences.
Neither are good options but one is clearly worse than the other.
slippy
Likes Bikes and Dirt
Johnny, your argument re "...the punishment for women being uncovered in public ... was death .... would you still say "fuck em, they knew the law" to any woman who broke it..." is a bit flawed and emotive. Could a woman expect sympathy if she knowingly flew into a country with these types of laws and paraded down the main street in a bikini? Sure, the law might not agree with our sense of humanity, but the behaviour of the woman is absurd.
It's hard to not have some internal struggle with your instinct to preserve life versus sympathising with someone who smuggles drugs out of a country widely known to penalise this act with death. Even under extreme pressure, why the flock would you do this? You always have options in life, always, and their bizarre choice is one I struggle to completely sympathise with. Even if I don't agree with the death penalty.
It's hard to not have some internal struggle with your instinct to preserve life versus sympathising with someone who smuggles drugs out of a country widely known to penalise this act with death. Even under extreme pressure, why the flock would you do this? You always have options in life, always, and their bizarre choice is one I struggle to completely sympathise with. Even if I don't agree with the death penalty.
pink poodle
気が狂っている男
Does everyone want to pull the ambassador?
POSM:
** I absolutely love Japan and Japanese culture but they do still have issues and it's not just the recent admittance of live vivisection performed on POWs during the war. I mean, have you ever watched their porn!?
Yep there's lots of weird shit there...but the girls are so hot.
PINT of Stella. mate!
Many, many Scotches
I haven't had a chance to read through every post in this thread yet so apologies if this has been covered but Geoffrey Robertson put forward a very good case on the ABC this arvo for withdrawing all promised aid to Indonesia and sending it straight to Nepal.
Slightly related, i recall a case recently of an aussie lad who was busted with a joint at 2am on the street in Kuta and they were talking about a 10 year sentence. Now smuggling obviously requires premeditation however how the hell can they think it's justifiable to impose a custodial sentence of that magnitude when the streets of Kuta are swarming with heaps of shady c**ts offering to sell said substances to tourists who are likely to be impaired by all the alcohol supplied by the establishments that are the major drawcard to the island in the first place?
F***ing entrapment if you ask me!
East Timor did set our relationship back a long way. But that was over 15 years ago now. There was a slow fostering of a decent relationship through the mid 2000s with SBY, but the contemporary issues I have raised particularly with old mate Abbott and friends at the helm has set us back to near East Timor levels of coldness.
Abandon was probably a bit harsh. But it was quite clear these guys were always going to be executed. It's just an easy political win to take a hard stance against the Indonesian government because aussies think indos are either terrorists or providers koi tattoos and cheap cigarettes.
I lived in Indonesia for five years as a wee lad at the end of the Suharto regime and East Timor drama. Though I was young, I distinctly remember the insanely strong presence of the military. More so any other militarised country I've visited with the exception of North Korea. While I agree that the heavy handed handling of the prisoners is somewhat of a PR stunt for Widodos gain.. It is also a remnant of the military tradition in their judicial system and the fact that the people running the police force are the same police chiefs that 15 years ago only had to deal with directing traffic. The police have the equipment and facade of a proper police force but the guys in charge are inexperienced and suffering from a tradition of corruption... They simply don't know how to handle media.
It's pretty ignorant to suggest that governments don't ignore morality for ulterior motives. I'm trying to raise the point (perhaps poorly) that both sides of our government have been short sited in taking such a firm stance in defending two criminals when there is far more economic/social gain to be made from taking a slightly less aggressive stance. (and if you want to talk about morals, an Australian-Indonesia free trade agreements for example would drag a countless number of Indonesians out of poverty.. Something I feel is far more important and moral than trying to help two Australian citizens who understood the consequences of a crime they were prepared to profit from).
And cheers for the grammar help.
redbruce
Eats Squid
I'm betting that won't happen either.
redbruce
Eats Squid
"But it was quite clear these guys were always going to be executed." Not quite so sure of that but not a reason for a "reasonable" society to give up.
"It's pretty ignorant to suggest that governments don't ignore morality for ulterior motives." Didn't pretend or believe it was. There are varying degrees though, and I trust our political morality more than where ignorance/defiance and life, is cheap (I have worked in Indonesia so not completely ignorant or dismissive of culture).
"and if you want to talk about morals, an Australian-Indonesia free trade agreements for example would drag a countless number of Indonesians out of poverty. Something I feel is far more important and moral than trying to help two Australian citizens who understood the consequences of a crime they were prepared to profit from". If you want to be completely altruistic, talk about what you are prepared to give up in your privileged western lifestyle in order for the opportunity cost of the second, third world and environment to achieve parity.
Grammar is a significant part of my working life. Glad to be of help.
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I don't believe he did. The more I listen to Robertson the more respect I lose for him. I mean he said almost word for word: Australia should cut police-to-police cooperation on drug smuggling. This will hurt both Indonesia and Australia but it should be done.
Right, so we have been hurt by Indonesia so we should do something that even worsens that damage??! Seriously, did he even think that through before he spoke? Robertson may understand the law but his comments today and his comments on Assange show that he hasn't a fucking clue regarding foreign policy and how governance and strategy work.
Ahh, don't look now, but....: https://www.austrade.gov.au/AANZFTA
PINT of Stella. mate!
Many, many Scotches
Yeah, fair point. Was concentrating more on the convenience of being able to send a few bucks towards an immediate humanitarian need whilst simultaneously sticking two-fingers up at a currently unfriendly neighbour without it affecting our all-too precious (and small) international aid budget.
As for the cooperation between Australian and Indonesian police forces I've got no knowledge on the matter other than a handful of prejudices gleaned from spending a lot of time in other SE Asian countries and seeing how the local police forces often operate on a political level. However if it's anything remotely like in Thailand where they appear to be a corrupt , state-sponsored mafia who would be actually running the country if it weren't for the fact the army have even more political and physical muscle, then it might be an idea to rethink certain aspects of any close ties.
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There's a multilateral agreement that doesn't cover all industries or remove all tariffs. We're currently in negotiation for a closer economic agreement which is still a couple of years off.
The point is lost though. You could make the same argument that better Australia-Indonesia relations will also see less idiots trying to blow themselves up in bali clubs. That's a moral win.
floody
Wheel size expert
Given the reaction of the MUI and conservative factions in 2004 when allowing women equal inheritance rights and access to divorce were mooted, I would say this is far from remote in Indonesia's future. And, for the record, I am not saying this is an Islamic thing, I am saying it is an Indonesian power drunkenness thing.
I don't have a great deal of regard for the convicted crooks du jour, but I could never sentence them to death.
I could certainly never sentence them to death and simultaneously lobby to release someone who did the same thing but on a 50x greater scale, who is on a far lesser sentence in a foreign country.
I couldn't release terrorists who killed 200 people after 7 years in gaol, and kill two drug traffickers after ten years in gaol.
It goes on, but I think this whole thing should red flag rising extreme nationalism in Indonesia, and to an extent with us.
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No FTA removes all tariffs and opens all industries. The term FTA is really a misnomer.
I really don't follow your second point, sorry. Don't get me wrong either, I believe that our relationship with RI is just as important as our rels with the US, and China. They are critically important for our national security (military and non-traditional such as crime, terror, natural disaster, etc) and I think good rels with them are almost the most important foreign policy issue our nation has.
However it goes both ways. I know the less-than-average Aussie doesn't even realise that Bali is part of Indonesia and views of RI aren't as good as they should be. But Indonesia DOES have some fundamental and deep issues it needs to sort out - corruption, patronage, dysfunctional parliamentary system (kommisi and fraksi system is just astoundingly bad for democracy and transparency), dysfunctional judiciary, decrepit defence forces, massive religious intolerance, political and social repression, violence against minorities, un-prosecuted mass murder, extra-judicial executions, etc. etc. And Indonesia IS causing this current situation to be worse than it need be with their deliberate handling of the situation.
So whilst I want excellent relations with RI we cannot ignore the problems and allow ourselves to be a political whipping boy when the president needs to gain political capital after trying to appoint a corrupt police chief and tossing the KPK under the bus in the process. Jokowi was made out to be the Ratu Adil but has only been confirmed as Megawati's wayang and now he needs to impress his electorate by whipping up nationalism by whipping Australia. That is not Australia's doing, that is all Jokowi and Mega.
The problem with eugenics (and removing a certain behavior from a population through selective breeding is eugenics) is that it fails to adhere to basic population genetic principles.
1) The phenotype of an organism is a product of the environment it is exposed to, and its genetics. In the case of child molestation, we know that there's a strong correlation between abuse as a child, and subsequent offending http://bjp.rcpsych.org/content/179/6/482. The genetic contribution to the trait is poorly characterized, but it appears to explain less than 15% of the variance in sexual preference toward children http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/jsm.12067/full. So it appears that breaking the cycle of child abuse (i.e. making sure kids don't get abused and turn into offenders themselves in later life) is more important than eliminating particular genes from a population in eradicating child abuse.
2) For recessive traits, eliminating people who express a particular disorder does very little towards removing those genes from the population, as for every sufferer there are many asymptomatic carriers. Using Asperger's as an example with basic Hardy-Wienberg Equilibrium principles; Asperger's is recessive and seen in 0.003 (1 in 300) of the population http://www.specialed...er/asper11.html
Using basic HWE, if p2 = 0.003, 2pq= 0.104
For every person suffering Asperger's, 35 people carry the genes causing the disease with no expression: by disallowing people with Asperger's from breeding with the general populous, you'll have a negligible effect on its expression.
3) For a trait like predisposition to pedophilia, there are likely multiple genes involved, with intergenic and epigenetic interactions at play. Unlike simple traits (e.g. pointed or floppy dog ears are dictated by a single mutation in one gene) we can easily manipulate in controlled populations, complex behaviors are much harder to selectively change, as changes in multiple genes can lead to unpredictable results.
[/nerd]
So basically, trying "end" a behavior is a poor argument, scientifically speaking for castrating or killing particular offenders.
Jeffgre_6163
Likes Dirt
Thank God! (not that there is a God) at least we can now look forward to the media moving on to another story in a couple of days.
And that folks is an indication of my interest in this issue.
Fuck them, they knew what the penalty was before they organised/coerced the other 7 in to the smuggling operation
Reformed? Rehabilitated?
Ha!
Having the death penalty hanging over your head would make anyone reform, it doesn't mean that grants you clemency in my book.