Proper recovery from long rides. Mistaking tiredness for hungriness?

[Elbo]

I've been doing more and more long rides (on the roadie) and I'll usually take a piece of banana bread and a gel or 2 with me (for a 100km+ ride) plus 2 bidons (one with water, one with low carb electrolyte mix). I've noticed that even though I've been riding a lot, I've put on a bit of fat, around the stomach in particular.

I was flicking through some other threads and read something that made me think I might be doing something wrong. The comment I read said that it's easy to misinterpret tiredness from a ride as the body needing more fuel/food. This got me thinking, am I recovering from my rides, or am I just substituting more food for what my body really needs after a long ride?

For example, I rode 100km on the weekend (1200m climbing) and consumed:
• 1 bowl of porridge with honey (pre-ride)
• 1.5L of water
• 750ml electrolyte mix (Endura Rehydration mix)
• 1 piece of banana bread
• 2 gels (1 at 50km, 1 at 90km)
• 1 large thickshake (post ride)
• 1 footlong chicken fillet subway + can of coke (post-post ride)

During the ride I did feel like I needed some of that to avoid bonking, and I was pretty wrecked by the end, but I don't recall ever feeling starving or feeling like I had a particularly empty stomach.

Is it a common mistake to misinterpret tiredness as needing more food and just eating, eating, eating, instead of recovering using other methods? I could probably do with more sleep I imagine…

 

[John U]

I'm a type 1 diabetic. I had Subway a couple times thinking it was healthy and it shot my blood sugar levels through the roof. That shit is full of sugar. May as well say it's a triple shit tonne of sugar when you're going for a foot long and a can of coke.

Maybe go for something with less simple carbohydrate post ride. I don't avoid carbs. I try to eat complex carbs when I do. It takes more effort/time for it to be broken down.

On the other side, low blood sugar can be associated with feeling tired.

 

[franco cozzo]

I've noticed that even though I've been riding a lot, I've put on a bit of fat, around the stomach in particular.

• 1 large thickshake (post ride)
• can of coke (post-post ride)

coke? whats going on there....?
theyre the main problem i reckon....kill the sugar wherever you can in your diet and your body will thank you for it. arent gels packed full of sugar as well...?
you could just as easily knock up your own roll with wholemeal, fresh greens/veg and some chicken breast at home and you can eliminate all that extra sugar that is in the subway sauces/bread roll...cheaper, healthier etc

after a decent ride i try not to eat for an hour or two (avoid binging on crap especially) or if i do something small to keep me going like some fruit until im ready to eat a proper meal & then rest/recover ...cant see the point in hammering yourself with activity & then stuffing yourself with food , leaves you feeling pretty bad i reckon & doesnt necessarily set you up for a good following day. post ride dinners for me would be something like a lean meat & veg based curry or stirfry with brown rice or fresh noodles or an asian style grilled meat salad with crunchy noodle or a decent home made style pizza or similar, the occasional postride beer (or 3) if i deserve it....

 

[Freediver]

calories in have to be equal to calories out and your having a lot of calories with all that sugar. About 6 or 7 grams of carbs per kilo per day and about 1 gram per kilo of protein. Try to minimise fats, don't exclude them just avoid fried stuff.
The AIS has some good info on nutrition, have a google and a read.

 

[Flow-Rider]

coke? whats going on there....?
theyre the main problem i reckon....kill the sugar wherever you can in your diet and your body will thank you for it. arent gels packed full of sugar as well...?
you could just as easily knock up your own roll with wholemeal, fresh greens/veg and some chicken breast at home and you can eliminate all that extra sugar that is in the subway sauces/bread roll...cheaper, healthier etc

after a decent i ride i try not to eat for an hour or two (avoid binging on crap especially) or if i do something small to keep me going like some fruit until i'm ready to eat a proper meal & then rest/recover ...cant see the point in hammering yourself with activity & then stuffing yourself with food , leaves you feeling pretty bad i reckon & doesn't necessarily set you up for a good following day. post ride dinners for me would be something like a lean meat & veg based curry or stirfry with brown rice or fresh noodles or an asian style grilled meat salad with crunchy noodle or a decent home made style pizza or similar, the occasional postride beer (or 3) if i deserve it....

I agree with Franco, try some protein powder mixed with water and dump the sugar hit. I would only use gels if I was racing or at the end of a ride if I was unable to sustain the same speed with the pack I was riding in. It's best not to teach your body to rely on them, from my experience they just give you a quick short lift then you flat line. If you feel like you are running out of energy on the ride, on your next 100km ride eat smaller portions more often, the old saying is drink before you get thirsty and eat before you get hungry.

 

[ajay]

Nearly everything youve consumed is sugary.
As said above, cut as much of it out as possible. Thickshakes, subway, even honey on your porridge is totally unnecessary.

Post ride carpark snacks for me usually consit of plain milk and a handful of almonds. There's no science behind my choice (that im aware of) but they're both protein sources and no sugar (unless you count the lactose in the milk). That easily tides me over to dinner.

Plenty of water, plenty of sleep, and cut the sugar.

 

[slippy]

Agree with all the comments about the thickshakes and coke. Complex carbs (oats, pasta, rice) are what you need, not sugar.

But I'm gonna take a slightly different stance on the intake during the ride. You said you needed to eat while riding to avoid bonking, and on a 100km ride that's reasonable. Why not substitute the lo-carb electrolyte drink with a sports drink that does have some carbs? Then you can ditch the banana bread which has probably got a lot of fat which you won't digest and be able to burn during the ride anyway. If you consume a mix of simple and complex carbs during the ride you might finish with more energy and feel less cravings for coke and thickshakes afterwards.

 

[pharmaboy]

calories in have to be equal to calories out and your having a lot of calories with all that sugar. About 6 or 7 grams of carbs per kilo per day and about 1 gram per kilo of protein. Try to minimise fats, don't exclude them just avoid fried stuff.
The AIS has some good info on nutrition, have a google and a read.

Agree on the AIS - they rate everything on evidence .

I've seen no evidence at all that complex sugars are difrent from simple ones in a sporting context - in fact gels are glucose /sucrose primarily because it's easy for the body to absorb and process the simpler sugars.

Your total intake though after ride seems well in excess of what I'd expect you to have burnt.

Sugar is today's social network demon, a few years ago it was fat, before that, cholesterol, somewhere in between was starch. Seriously, there is more religion in diets that in the Vatican.

A good diet is a little bit of this and a little bit of that and one where total calories in matches total calories burnt or a little less for weight loss - I know seems too simple........

 

[John U]

I have experimented with carb intake since I was diagnosed as a diabetic in 1983. Simple sugars will give you a spike which might be ok in small doses to maintain you blood glucose while excercising probably no good in anyway for recovery.
I also use the method of topping up while riding by using Gatorade or something similar. In the right conditions I can maintain almost constant blood glucose levels with this method.
The thickshake will be a lot of fat and sugar. Not good if you're worried about weight.

I agree with farmer boy on a balanced diet is the way to go. Dunno what the going opinion is on the food pyramid but it still seems to be a good yardstick. Steer clear of processed food.

 

[pharmaboy]

John, I'd just add that the simple sugars versus complex etc is stupidly different for a diabetic whether type 1 or type 2. I was only commenting on people without diabetes. Even someone with impaired glucose function might need to tread differently to an average person

 

[wesdadude]

Dunno what the going opinion is on the food pyramid but it still seems to be a good yardstick

The food pyramid's been superseded by the food pie. The idea is that it's better at representing quantities and it looks like a plate.

 

[Elbo]

Thanks for all the replies guys, didn’t realise I was eating so much sugar to be honest! Probably explains the general tiredness too, hitting all those sugar highs and lows after my rides and feeling like I need more food.

Looks like I need to head over to the food discipline thread. I’m too quick to grab a subway or something and eat crap after a ride, rather than make that wholemeal sandwich when I get home.

I have noticed I’ve been using more gels than is necessary. I do take one as a back up in case I’m on a bunch and I need that second wind after a long time, but I shouldn’t need to crack one open for a 60km ride, think it’s just a bad habit that’s formed, and probably helped along by the fact I can grab gels from work easily for cost price.

I’ve found the low carb electrolyte stuff has been great for stopping cramps, etc, after 200km rides, but it sounds like I need more complex carbs, and a lot less sugar!

I’ll read up on that AIS nutrition info, because I’ve obviously got a lot of stuff to learn.

For those who ride, say, 200km a week, what do your weekly meals typically look like?

 

[Demo Eight]

If you want to know how many calories your downing use "my fitness pal" it'll give you a good understanding of what's good n what's bad. You will be surprised on how unhealthy some "healthy" products are.

 

[Mywifesirrational]

Best to ignore half the stuff in this thread most of its wrong, pharma's views closely mimic my knowledge.

Firstly if you serious just pay for one or two consults with a sports dietitian - to get more or less a pure dietary approach, or an exercise physiologist that specialises in sports performance to get more a training / life style perspective. It's not that expensive - especially if you record or take a lot of notes.

Sugar isn't bad, in fact our diet should have a daily intake of 50+%, carbohydrates are a sugar, comples carbs are processed slower than simple carbs, but regardless all carbs are absorbed and converted into glucose which is sugar, that glucose is either taken up by muscles for energy production or if there is an excess converted and stored as fat. With carbohydrates, particularly when riding 100+ km's, muscles don't work particularly efficiently when you deplete glycogen stores (sugar stored in muscles) and post ride you'll feel flat for days.

Any ride over 2 hrs in length is going to require carbohydrate ingestion, looking at your food, I'd actually say your not eating enough. Your also not having enough fluid - 1 litre per hour minimum.

Low carb eletrolyte mix is a waste of time - replace that with 2 litres of gatorade, people are going to disagree I am sure, throw some published research up that it's not and I'll become a believer, the research for proper carb ingestion during long duration aerobic exercise is very, very solid. AIS guidelines are world class in this regard.

During the ride I did feel like I needed some of that to avoid bonking, and I was pretty wrecked by the end, but I don't recall ever feeling starving or feeling like I had a particularly empty stomach.

This is from glycogen depletion, not enough carbs to maintain blood glucose levels - your now breaking down mostly fats which makes you feel very flat.

2 gels (1 at 50km, 1 at 90km)

You need to take these way earlier, the way it works is your ingesting simple carbs / sugar, it absorbs fast, so blood glucose is maintained as this tops it up, sparing your muscle / liver glycogen stores - meaning you finish feeling a lot better or finish a lot faster but feel as you do now.

I've noticed that even though I've been riding a lot, I've put on a bit of fat, around the stomach in particular.

This is from diet overall, work out you metabolic requirements - how many kj's daily you require, work out how much extra you burn via exercise, heart rate monitors can give you a prediction, and work out how many kj's you are consuming. If your in a surplus = more stomach fat, if in a deficit = less stomach fat.

For those who ride, say, 200km a week,

Normal food intake here, if its in smaller rides, if its 200km ride - big porridge breaky, 4 gatorades, 4 bananas, 2-4 muslin bars, 3-5 litres of water, a sit down lunch 1-2 salad sandwiches, bearing in mind 200km's takes me 12+ hours. If i dont eat like that I grind to a stop at about 120km.

 

[franco cozzo]

For those who ride, say, 200km a week, what do your weekly meals typically look like?

i dont approach it formally no dietary/training plan or anything just try to eat well and not to excess....less/little processed foods, real ingredients, lots of veg, lean meat, wholemeal & multigrain only for carbs, brown sometimes with a little basmati rice mixed in....lots of home made stir frys & curries, salads...anything where i get a lot of fresh veg in.
no soft drinks - only water, some juice & fruit, tiny amount of sugar in coffees but no cakes sweets etc (occasional treat maybe), moderate/low alcohol intake, no take aways or junk food but some pre-prepped convenience food

today did a 100km ride today (on an mtb so fairly longer day than on a roadie) i had some wholegrains cereal with coffees in the morning, went riding, coffee mid ride, 1.5L of water consumed, no gels bars or any food consumed during ride...not necessary as i ate well last night and had just enough in the morning. i prefer to fast & ride, feels much better for me...
post ride a beer to relax then left over green thai curry with brown rice, couple nectarines and then some nachos cause i lost 1.5kg (down to 70.0kg/9.8bmi) on todays ride and felt like something crunchy.
feel great not to full ready to rest & satisfied... planning for a reasonable ride tomorrow as well

...clearly everyone approaches this differently. try some different methods and see what works for you!

4 gatorades, 4 bananas, 2-4 muslin bars, 3-5 litres of water, a sit down lunch 1-2 salad sandwiches, bearing in mind 200km's takes me 12+ hours. If i dont eat like that I grind to a stop at about 120km.

what is your weight & height....? to me that seems an enormous amount of food for any length ride!

 

[Trickymac]

Best to ignore half the stuff in this thread most of its wrong, pharma's views closely mimic my knowledge.

Firstly if you serious just pay for one or two consults with a sports dietitian - to get more or less a pure dietary approach, or an exercise physiologist that specialises in sports performance to get more a training / life style perspective. It's not that expensive - especially if you record or take a lot of notes.

Sugar isn't bad, in fact our diet should have a daily intake of 50+%, carbohydrates are a sugar, comples carbs are processed slower than simple carbs, but regardless all carbs are absorbed and converted into glucose which is sugar, that glucose is either taken up by muscles for energy production or if there is an excess converted and stored as fat. With carbohydrates, particularly when riding 100+ km's, muscles don't work particularly efficiently when you deplete glycogen stores (sugar stored in muscles) and post ride you'll feel flat for days.

Any ride over 2 hrs in length is going to require carbohydrate ingestion, looking at your food, I'd actually say your not eating enough. Your also not having enough fluid - 1 litre per hour minimum.

Low carb eletrolyte mix is a waste of time - replace that with 2 litres of gatorade, people are going to disagree I am sure, throw some published research up that it's not and I'll become a believer, the research for proper carb ingestion during long duration aerobic exercise is very, very solid. AIS guidelines are world class in this regard.



This is from glycogen depletion, not enough carbs to maintain blood glucose levels - your now breaking down mostly fats which makes you feel very flat.



You need to take these way earlier, the way it works is your ingesting simple carbs / sugar, it absorbs fast, so blood glucose is maintained as this tops it up, sparing your muscle / liver glycogen stores - meaning you finish feeling a lot better or finish a lot faster but feel as you do now.



This is from diet overall, work out you metabolic requirements - how many kj's daily you require, work out how much extra you burn via exercise, heart rate monitors can give you a prediction, and work out how many kj's you are consuming. If your in a surplus = more stomach fat, if in a deficit = less stomach fat.



Normal food intake here, if its in smaller rides, if its 200km ride - big porridge breaky, 4 gatorades, 4 bananas, 2-4 muslin bars, 3-5 litres of water, a sit down lunch 1-2 salad sandwiches, bearing in mind 200km's takes me 12+ hours. If i dont eat like that I grind to a stop at about 120km.

cant argue with most of what you say my wifes irrational as i know youre an educated man, me too and am at work right now and cant find the journal articles but heres a rough link for now, i thought some emerging science on the whole needing sugar was being challenged a bit, with some new research showing we dont need as much as we think for endurance sports, you heard much about this??, im sure i saw story on it on catalyst while ago
http://www.ultrarunning.com/features/health-and-nutrition/the-emerging-science-on-fat-adaptation/

 

[Flow-Rider]

cant argue with most of what you say my wifes irrational as i know youre an educated man, me too and am at work right now and cant find the journal articles but heres a rough link for now, i thought some emerging science on the whole needing sugar was being challenged a bit, with some new research showing we dont need as much as we think for endurance sports, you heard much about this??, im sure i saw story on it on catalyst while ago
http://www.ultrarunning.com/features/health-and-nutrition/the-emerging-science-on-fat-adaptation/

If the op is taking in the right amount of sucrose, why is putting on more weight around his gut. I think cans of coke with thickshakes and too many gels are a bit excessive.

 

[Mywifesirrational]

what is your weight & height....? to me that seems an enormous amount of food for any length ride!

that's only about 14000kj + dinner, losing a lot of weight on a day like that - need 20000+ kj a day when doing that much activity.

I always seem to average 22km / per hour on a ride like that, so pace is pretty cruzy, but it takes 10 hours minimum in the saddle.

cant argue with most of what you say my wifes irrational as i know youre an educated man, me too and am at work right now and cant find the journal articles but heres a rough link for now, i thought some emerging science on the whole needing sugar was being challenged a bit, with some new research showing we dont need as much as we think for endurance sports, you heard much about this??, im sure i saw story on it on catalyst while ago
http://www.ultrarunning.com/features/health-and-nutrition/the-emerging-science-on-fat-adaptation/

I new this was coming!

I read most of Tim Noakes work on this subject and seen him present, I'm on the fence on this one, as I've also seen data from other researchers with just as much expertise show the opposite. As far as I can tell no Olympian has taken this approach, and what from Noakes has said himself, this needs a lot more research before a conclusion is made - but the media has jumped to a large conclusion as they normally do.

I'd wager there's a few labs trying to replicate his findings.

I'd be curious to see if there is any health related issues with long term high fat diets... Atkins, was the last high fat fad, now ketone based diet - being more lifestyles not performance, and neither of these is supported from an wider evidence base.

 

[Trickymac]

that's only about 14000kj + dinner, losing a lot of weight on a day like that - need 20000+ kj a day when doing that much activity.

I always seem to average 22km / per hour on a ride like that, so pace is pretty cruzy, but it takes 10 hours minimum in the saddle.



I new this was coming!

I read most of Tim Noakes work on this subject and seen him present, I'm on the fence on this one, as I've also seen data from other researchers with just as much expertise show the opposite. As far as I can tell no Olympian has taken this approach, and what from Noakes has said himself, this needs a lot more research before a conclusion is made - but the media has jumped to a large conclusion as they normally do.

I'd wager there's a few labs trying to replicate his findings.

I'd be curious to see if there is any health related issues with long term high fat diets... Atkins, was the last high fat fad, now ketone based diet - being more lifestyles not performance, and neither of these is supported from an wider evidence base.

ah cool, interesting, yeah it will be interesting finding out what happens, ive been experimenting a bit wth less sugar on rides and its up and down, mostly tho im finding i dont need to intake as much sugar as used to, but have had the occasional ride where afterwards i felt depleted as fuck, in saying that thats happened plenty of times ive smashed out a sugary ride...anecdotal stuff only of course

 

[johnny]

Sugar is today's social network demon, a few years ago it was fat, before that, cholesterol, somewhere in between was starch.

A good diet is a little bit of this and a little bit of that [lots of veges and fruit with soluble fibre and constant levels of protein] and one where total calories in matches total calories burnt or a little less for weight loss - I know seems too simple........

With only a small clarification.