McBain
Likes Bikes and Dirt
Yeah, I did the test last night, but didn't like the way things were phrased. It is too deliberately slanted, IMO (even if that bias is they way I'd lean anyway).
Interesting idea, not a great implementation though.
Farkin's Political compass: Where do you stand?
- Thread starter Rik
- Start date
Interesting idea, not a great implementation though.
scblack
Leucocholic
Many of the questions are very weighted, and also posed in a double negative way.
I am not questioning the environment at all, I am listing that question because it is saying that corporations cannot be trusted. Corporations are a group of PEOPLE - thats right - people. It is akin to saying, you are a manager for a company, and therefore cannot be trusted. A very loaded view.
Many of the questions are against the actions of corporations - it is quite glaring that the questioner is against companies, and global companies in particular.
Dumbellina
Likes Dirt
What's wrong with hating corporations, when you all hate people too!
scblack
Leucocholic
No, we don't hate all people, we just hate you!
Though why you see me, an individual, as a corporation, we'll probably never find out.
Dumbellina
Likes Dirt
Corporations are collections of greedy people lining their own pockets at everyone else's detriment.
But then again many sports clubs, volunteer groups, etc are corporations (incorprated associations)...
But then again many sports clubs, volunteer groups, etc are corporations (incorprated associations)...
scblack
Leucocholic
Inferring that I am a greedy person...................Lovely
.Where do you work by the way? Who for?
Daver
Kung Fu Panda
"corporations are bad because they're all corporation-y"...
Dumbellina
Likes Dirt
I'm a public servant.
My point was that there are corporations with greedy sods, hence we have ASIC and the ASX regulating their activities. Names like One Tel, World Com, HIH Insurance etc are examples of the stereotypical "bad" corporations and greedy executives...
My counter-point, which agrees with your argument, is that corporations vary in size, business activities, management structure, purpose, etc.
So if you find I said you were greedy in that, I must have written in it classical latin without knowing.
My political compass (to get back on topic)
Economic Left/Right: -6.50
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -6.67
So I am a lefty libertine, which is oh so wrong
My point was that there are corporations with greedy sods, hence we have ASIC and the ASX regulating their activities. Names like One Tel, World Com, HIH Insurance etc are examples of the stereotypical "bad" corporations and greedy executives...
My counter-point, which agrees with your argument, is that corporations vary in size, business activities, management structure, purpose, etc.
So if you find I said you were greedy in that, I must have written in it classical latin without knowing.
My political compass (to get back on topic)
Economic Left/Right: -6.50
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -6.67
So I am a lefty libertine, which is oh so wrong
I think it was the overall comment of "Corporations are collections of greedy people lining their own pockets at everyone else's detriment." and that SCBLACK works for a corporation that would lead him to that assumption. I too felt it was poor generalisation that showed an immature look at life. I work for a large corporation and I have to say the most generous people I have ever met work here. Some in the top 200 most wealthy people in Australia. They will do more for other people than you or I will ever have a chance to do.
Dumbellina
Likes Dirt
It was said with a sarcastic tone with a counter-point directly underneath it. I don't know how you get immaturity from saying that corporations (in the sense of large multinational business organisations) are made up of greedy people, when there are many many examples of corporate fraud, social and environmental detriment.
Besides the companies listed earlier, think about James Hardies flight to the Netherlands in a shoddy attempt to avoid asbestos liabilities in Australia. Or what is happening now in Indonesia, where the company responsible for the 'mud volcano' destruction in central Java is trying to flee to the Virgin Islands to similarly escape criminal and civil liabilities. The car makers who paid out damages claims because they considered it cheaper than making the cars safe in the first place (there's a couple of makers at fault here). The recent Victorian case where tobacco companies avoided liability by destroying evidence ("document retention").
Corporations are made up of, and governed by and for, its members. Members, of public companies, are mostly shareholders mostly but also directors on the board, and executives and senior management. Private companies are owned by private individuals.
The point of all corporations is to provide returns on investments for members. Ever since English merchants and nobles in the 1500s and 1600s set up corporations for colonising projects, privateering, and trade, that has been the number one objective. Only in recent times have social and environmental objectives had a role in the management of corporations.
So "greed" (I don't mean this in the nasty sense, but the desire to earn profits or returns on investment) has always been at the core of establishing and managing corporations. It is realistic view of the world not an immature one.
I don't doubt the sincerity and genuiness if rich individuals giving to charities and worthwhile causes. But really that's government's duty, to ensure equity within society, provide access to essential services, and support art, culture and social activities. Where government passes that responsibility to rich individuals, it becomes welfare at the discretion of that individual rather than a deliberate action of everyone to support that worthwhile cause. This means its tied to the whims of the individual and their current awareness of needs.
An example is probably the best means to elaborate on this point. Westmead Children's Hospital has more money given to it than it knows what to do with because of charitable donations by well-meaning groups and individuals. The adult Westmead Hospital stuggles to balance its budget because of shortfalls in funding. People with the means and conscience see sick kids and throw money at the cause, no one cares about the health of older Australians.
Which is the problem with corporate welfare generally, real or genuine need is lower on the priority list than the "feel good" factor. Governments on the other hand, guided only by need, should fund these things and not rely on corporations.
I read your post, but I dont understand where you are going with it. You made a generalisation about a social demographic and that's all I was pointing out. If it makes you feel better you can try and excuse this by pointing out a off handed comment made after, but I can also point out you stated that you hate corporations, which would lead me to believe you do think all people who work for a corporation are greedy. And from this level of contribution into this thread I still think you have a very immature view on social responsibility. I also think it screams of petty jealousy that you have come to the sound opinion that anyone who works for a living is greedy.
I think you'll find society is made up of totally individual people that are all unique in there own way. There will be criminals in and out of Corporations, just as there are across races and all sorts of demographics.
I think you'll find society is made up of totally individual people that are all unique in there own way. There will be criminals in and out of Corporations, just as there are across races and all sorts of demographics.
projectsplat
The film guy
Your political compass
Economic Left/Right: -5.63
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -4.97
oh my god. I am leftist pinko communist hippy. well, that is rather telling isn't it. not quite the capitalist I pretend to be....
peace.
Economic Left/Right: -5.63
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -4.97
oh my god. I am leftist pinko communist hippy. well, that is rather telling isn't it. not quite the capitalist I pretend to be....
peace.
Dumbellina
Likes Dirt
I never said employees of corporations were by their employment greedy. I said members of the corporation - shareholders, directors, executives, senior management - are those who possess "greed". It is those people who ASIC and the ASX deal with, because their greed has robbed people (including other corporations). The ACCC and NSW Fair Trading spend a lot of time protecting people against corporate greed and wrong doing.
My distinction was between employers and employees, so I don't believe you, Scblack or any other employee of any corporation is greedy on the basis you work for a corporation. Almost all Farkiners are employees of some kind or other (except the bike industry and small business folk), so your interpretation of my posts would be that I said all employees are greedy (which would include me). Which is an absurd reading of my posts, hence my comment "have I written in classical latin?". It is you whose understanding of corporations is immature and leads you to believe that by criticising members of a corporation, somehow I am criticising its employees.
My understanding of corporations is far from immature, and I take offence that you think my view is immature. I work with many kinds of corporations everyday, I also do a lot of work in the area of corporate governance. So I don't hate corporations per se, merely those corporations in their individual acts and the actions of their greedy members leads me to hold them in healthy contempt (and not jealousy).
As for corporate welfare versus government welfare, my point is that mere individual generosity can be more harmful to society where it takes the place of government responsibilty. The connection which was not well made, is that giving by the wealthy does not make them any less "greedy" (as in desiring of a "handsome" return on their investment).
So everyone who owns a share is greedy?? Some people, myself included invest in shares so that one day we can retire and live off these shares. That isnt greedy Dumbellina, that is sound investment. Also I am manager where I work, one day hopefully a senior manager. Why does career aspirations make me greedy.
I still think your contempt is anything but healthy. Sure there are some rat bags in Corporations, but no more than in any other area of life.
You seem very articulate Dumbellina, and from what I've seen of your previous threads not at all unreasonable, but I do think you are casting a very unfair and completely unsubstantiated view on Corporations, their management and shareholders.
Dumbellina
Likes Dirt
Ok lets end this debate. I don't think you or your desires to improve your lot are necessarily evil or bad. Hell, with superannuation we all have interests in the stock market, even if incidental. Working for a corporation doesn't make you greedy, owning one by definition does.
Here are the uncontroversial parts of this debate:
* the actions of some members of some corporations (ie large multinational business organisations), by their greed causes detriment to society, the environment and individuals
* the conduct of those greedy members of the corporation is distinguished from the ambitions and actions of employees
* there are many kinds of corporations, from sports clubs through to the members of the Business Council of Australia, so tarring them all with the same brush is obviously wrong
Finally to make it very plain, I am not being critical of greed rather where "greed causes detriment to society, etc".