Extinction - do you care?

[Arete]

Just tonight I was watching a Doco on wildlife in China and was depressed by the visual reality of what I already knew - almost all the large, native vertebrates in China are pretty much stuffed, and with the economic and continued population growth in China pushing the "luxury" of preserving biodiversity lower on the agenda, things aren't looking too good for them. Tigers, leopards, reticulated pythons and many others are gone. Giant salamaders, pandas, Chinese alligator, Fracois Langurs and a multitde of others are for all intents and purposes, stuffed.

Then it occurred to me that Europe has already seen the effective extinction of all its large vertebrates - wolves, boars, deer, bears etc are all effectively or completely extinct.

Most of the large, charismatic vertebrates left exist in developing nations. With the ever-increasing demands on resources in countries like India and the rest of Asia, not to mention the clusterfuck that are the Equatorial and Savannah zones in Africa, many of the ubiquotous storybook animals - elephants, tigers, lions, cheetahs, rhinos, gorillas, etc are effectively extinct, or very soon going to be without intervention.

A few questions are raised - should countries like Australia be doing more to preserve global biodiversty, especially when the countries that many of these organisms are found are desperately poor and incapable of doing it themselves? Or do we have enough on our plate just trying to keep our own biodiversty above water?

Also, do we have the right/duty to act in regards to biodiversity preservation? We gained our economic status through the utter destruction of Europe's natural ecosystems, so do we really have a right to demand others to not follow in our footsteps?

Do people care that other organisms are disappearing? Are humanitarian dilemmas more urgent?

 

[Angry Atheist]

Its sort of an indirect decision.

If you don't drop the human population, then no amount of help is going to stop the current trend.

I just cannot see how some starving family is going to abide by the rules (not eating threatened species) when the government makes it protected and illegal. If its not poaching just for money, then when an animal is being eyed off as a fat juicy steak, nothing would stop them.

My solution? We need some sort of contagion to screw us over! Its the only way we are going to keep the earth livable for the foreseeable future. Anyone and everyone can be a bleeding heart. It ain't going to do much in the long run.

 

[johnny]

I'll take a guess here and say that it's not that these animals are being eaten, it's that their natural habitats are being destroyed by us building cities, farm land and/or pollution.

I can also tell you that China doesn't give a rat's arse about anything other than making money. The government keeps the people dumb so they can't change the way things run, dumb people think the only important thing is money and the social status it brings and therefore demand a growing economy from their government. Government responds, dumbness expands and kills all within its path.

One question though Arete; what do you mean by "effectively extinct"? Because be it anyone else saying those words and I'd instantly claim oxy-moron.

 

[Angry Atheist]

Hey,

Good to see you still with us. Whats the situation is China? Is it as bad as they say?

... er, your still in China?

 

[gravelclimber]

One question though Arete; what do you mean by "effectively extinct"? Because be it anyone else saying those words and I'd instantly claim oxy-moron.

I suspect he means extinct outside of zoos and small reserves.

We should care a lot about biodiversity, but perhaps not over concentrate on big 'charismatic' animals to the detriment of less popular ones that fill more important roles in maintaining ecosystems.

As for the Chinese, some people would be killing these animals for food, others for aphrodisiacs like tiger penis that of course don't work. Dodgy Chinese 'medicine' has a lot to answer for.

I remember talking to some Lao hill tribe people and they had this saying: "A tiger for a Tiger"; meaning that killing a tiger would supply enough money for a Thai Toyota Tiger (their version of the Hilux). When you're earning 2$ a day that's a pretty powerful argument.

Anyhows, I would guess that farming has the biggest overall impact on biodiversity. The best way to improve biodiversity would be to grow more food on less land. GMO crops and animals are absolutely essential to do this. Wanky new-age low yield farming (also know as 'organic') is an excellent way to reduce biodiversity.

My 2c.

 

[Arete]

But it's not just China - the entire developing world is going through the same growing pains.

Effectively extinct - the genetic variation of a species or population drops so low that there is no hope of avoiding inbreeding depression and subsequent loss of fitness, effectively rendering the species unable to recover. E.g. every cheetah left in the world is as close to genetically identical as you can get. The number of generations required to re-establish genetic variation versus the inbreeding that will occur means that recovery is effectively impossible.

 

[gravelclimber]

But it's not just China - the entire developing world is going through the same growing pains.

Effectively extinct - the genetic variation of a species or population drops so low that there is no hope of avoiding inbreeding depression and subsequent loss of fitness, effectively rendering the species unable to recover. E.g. every cheetah left in the world is as close to genetically identical as you can get. The number of generations required to re-establish genetic variation versus the inbreeding that will occur means that recovery is effectively impossible.

We could always put the cheetahs on a sunbed and irradiate 'em a little. Lots of genetic variation. Problem solved.

 

[AngoXC]

We should care a lot about biodiversity, but perhaps not over concentrate on big 'charismatic' animals to the detriment of less popular ones that fill more important roles in maintaining ecosystems.

This is spot on. Its all in conserving the WHOLE picture, not just individual aspects. We get so wrapped up in protecting things like the panda, we overlook the arguably more important species such as the bugs and fungus that support the plants and animals the panda eats. (Even then, in China's present situation, theres likley to be little habitat left for it).
Land clearing is the biggest killer to biodiversity. You see it in Brazil with the rainforest being cut down for the growth of biofuels etc. While its great they are doing this, they are clearing land and tremendous rates to do so.

My solution? We need some sort of contagion to screw us over! Its the only way we are going to keep the earth livable for the foreseeable future. Anyone and everyone can be a bleeding heart. It ain't going to do much in the long run.

Chinese Earthquake. Burmese Hurricane. Its starting. The Apocalyse is here!
'They' believe our population on a global scale will max out at around 12billion when an unknown 'force' will stabilize us (a time which is not far off). In the 80's, everyone was certain this would be AIDs/HIV.
Energy will be a huge thing as well. Peak oil is not too far off either and has the potential to screw us indefinatly. Personally, I hope that time comes sooner rather then later. It will force us humans to get off our self-absorbed and ingnorant arses and actually look at alternative energies seriously. (Kinda hypocritical I know but that is the nature of our species...as someone stated earlier on this forum...'we came...we farked it')

 

[No Skid Marks]

We are wiping out species here as fast as overseas,and what about our closest neighbor West Papua, The Indonesians are decimating the huge wealth of biodiversity there,and most Australians are totally unaware of it. I feel as it is only going to get a lot worse,as Chinas power grows and the rest of the world struggles to keep up.
I hope I get to see the greater population of humans die before I do.
I agree,bugs,bacteria,plankton etc are more important to the world as we know it surviving. The dumbing by marketing etc must stop before we have any hope.
Who can name ten animals native to where their house is?

 

[John U]

'They' believe our population on a global scale will max out at around 12billion when an unknown 'force' will stabilize us (a time which is not far off). In the 80's, everyone was certain this would be AIDs/HIV.

Unknown force? How about starvation, lack of clean drinking water.