Suspension DW Link vs Split pivot Vs maestro
- Thread starter SF Trailboy
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SF Trailboy
Likes Bikes and Dirt
Half way between Canberra and Sydney
I've had decent time on a DW Link (Ironhorse MKIII) and now a Maestro (Giant Reign). I think you can get far too wound up in the technical differences that won't necessarily make that much difference on the trail. The MKIII climbed like mad and did well on the downhills, but nothing like the Reign. But that's a burlier bike. The Reign did suck in the mid stroke until I swapped the can on the shock to something smaller. Now it climbs really well for the size of the bike that it is and does really well on the downs.
I'd decide which way you're going. If you plan to just buy a complete bike and never change too much or worry too much about tuning then you really need to spend some saddle time on what best covers what you want to do. If you're happy to tinker with it and perhaps change things to get the tune you want then there is a whole range of different shocks etc that will probably have just as much influence as fundamental suspension design so you might be able to get a good compromise after you've bought the bike.
But I wouldn't worry about it too much. They all have slight strengths and weaknesses, but in the grand scheme of things, get a bike that also has the component mix and functions that you want primarily.
I'd decide which way you're going. If you plan to just buy a complete bike and never change too much or worry too much about tuning then you really need to spend some saddle time on what best covers what you want to do. If you're happy to tinker with it and perhaps change things to get the tune you want then there is a whole range of different shocks etc that will probably have just as much influence as fundamental suspension design so you might be able to get a good compromise after you've bought the bike.
But I wouldn't worry about it too much. They all have slight strengths and weaknesses, but in the grand scheme of things, get a bike that also has the component mix and functions that you want primarily.
You can’t really generalise about the different suspension types. Most of the virtual pivot types FSR, VPP, DW, Maestro etc can be configured to give similar or drastically different performance to each other. Different models across brands e.g. Norco vs Specialized, across a single brands range e.g. Bronson vs Nomad, or even model years e.g. Nomad 2 vs Nomad 3 also vary greatly. The two most important suspension characteristics of anti-squat and shock leverage also vary greatly by chain-ring/ cassette combo, and sag position. So it’s very difficult to compare accurately especially with different shock setups.
The beauty of the virtual pivot is that if they are executed well you can get close to 100% anti squat at the recommended sag and your preferred chain-ring size, without huge amounts of chain growth at full travel. These designs don’t have to rely on fancy shock platform and levers in order to pedal well.
The split pivot is just a single pivot, so you can’t have both a high amount of anti-squat and low chain growth. Trek rely on the shock to make them pedal well, the Split pivot typically have higher amount of anti-squat and therefore chain growth.
IMHO choose a bike with good geometry (long, low and slack) that is optimised to have close to 100% anti-squat with a 1x drive train. If you don’t want it to have a fair bit of pedal kickback it will most likely be a virtual pivot arrangement.
Just about all bikes are pretty well sorted now, you will soon get used to how a specific model performs and adapt to like it regardless.
The beauty of the virtual pivot is that if they are executed well you can get close to 100% anti squat at the recommended sag and your preferred chain-ring size, without huge amounts of chain growth at full travel. These designs don’t have to rely on fancy shock platform and levers in order to pedal well.
The split pivot is just a single pivot, so you can’t have both a high amount of anti-squat and low chain growth. Trek rely on the shock to make them pedal well, the Split pivot typically have higher amount of anti-squat and therefore chain growth.
IMHO choose a bike with good geometry (long, low and slack) that is optimised to have close to 100% anti-squat with a 1x drive train. If you don’t want it to have a fair bit of pedal kickback it will most likely be a virtual pivot arrangement.
Just about all bikes are pretty well sorted now, you will soon get used to how a specific model performs and adapt to like it regardless.
Ivan
Eats Squid
slippy
Likes Bikes and Dirt
Only to a point. Riding a faux-bar, any faux-bar (or any other variant of the single pivot), will never perform like a DW/VPP/Maestro/CVA/Horst link/Lawill (can we just call them parallelograms?).
The faux bar design, IMO, is just a cheap cop out from compaines who can't be bothered investing in a little suspension R & D. If I'm spending thousands on a carbon fibre bike with electronic shifting and remote controlled forks, shocks and seatposts, I'd also like suspension that doesn't bob when I pedal or stiffen up when I brake. That will affect performance way more than changing your wheel diameter by less than 2 inches...
Maybe a blind test would be a tough call between VPP and Maestro say; but between a single pivot and VPP you'd pick it on the first corner.
Oh, and split pivot is more than just a single pivot. Sure, the wheel path will be the same, but the braking forces are isolated from suspension forces, so in that sense it's very different.
The faux bar design, IMO, is just a cheap cop out from compaines who can't be bothered investing in a little suspension R & D. If I'm spending thousands on a carbon fibre bike with electronic shifting and remote controlled forks, shocks and seatposts, I'd also like suspension that doesn't bob when I pedal or stiffen up when I brake. That will affect performance way more than changing your wheel diameter by less than 2 inches...
Maybe a blind test would be a tough call between VPP and Maestro say; but between a single pivot and VPP you'd pick it on the first corner.
Oh, and split pivot is more than just a single pivot. Sure, the wheel path will be the same, but the braking forces are isolated from suspension forces, so in that sense it's very different.
SF Trailboy
Likes Bikes and Dirt
These 2 posts and several others in the thread are not only why I love rotorburn but mtbing and it's community all together. Wished I'd found this earlier.
Kyle appreciate the offer but I am still playing winter sport ATM. I have spoken to couple of shops in the act and will be lining up some demos early spring.
So far I am listing these to demo Giant Anthem (maestro) Specialized Camber (4 bar fsr) Bh lynx 4.8 (split pivot) 429 (dw link) all 29ers but might do the anthem in a 27.5.
I'm not a massive tinkerer so I need to make sure I'm happy from the start...
Unfortunately that is mostly marketing BS, sure most of the concentric pivots have less antirise than the faux-bar but they still have roughly 40- 70%. Unless you have a floating system (which have pretty much been abandoned for good reason) it is practically impossible to truely isolate the two. You dont see Sam hill on his Faux bar struggling with his braking performance.... in fact some people argue that antirise actually assists to correct geometry on steep descents.
Dont get me wrong im a DW and KS link owner/ fan, but there are some great faux bar and linkage driven single pivot bikes out there now. Try riding an evil uprising, guerillagravity megatrail or even the nukeproof mega which have been designed to pedal pretty well and the brake antirise isnt an issue. As mentioned above pedal kickback is the biggest drawback IMHO.
brutasauras
Likes Dirt
In path analysis, there is a section called "natural mirror bike" which explains that any of the 4 bar linkage set ups can be paired with single pivot on one side of the same bike. This should clearly show that it is the pivot placement or instant center (virtual pivot) position that decides behavior and not the configuration. The 4 bars with an instant center can have 100 percent anti squat at sag only in one gear on the cassette, exactly the same as a single pivot can (plenty of examples on the linkage program including treks). What the 4 bar can have is a rapid change in the instant center that brings the anti squat % right down (can go from 100% + to below 0) as it goes deeper into its travel and the single pivots anti squat % still goes down but cant match the change of a 4 bar (can with a floating idler). But i would argue that a single pivots fixed pivot position is an advantage in dealing with mass shifts of the rider and giving them a consistent point of behavior when the bike is working dynamically. Bikes are unique vehicles in that the riders % of mass is such an influence that the geometry should be high on the list when choosing a bike. As should the whole bike be considered not just the rear suspension, the forks can have a huge impact even on the rear suspension behavior, severe diving under braking will shift the riders mass forward extending the swing arm regardless of where the brake mount is located. Even with high percentages of anti squat, forces can be transmitted to your front fork making it squat and bob like the fork on a hard tail.It also must be remembered that there are conditions where you want squat, under braking, lacking traction and i think some people like the feel of a bike that feels the same in most gears under acceleration (due to very low anti squat values) and rely on the shocks compression to control bob and not chain torque. As always everything is a compromise and we the rider are the biggest compromise to a bikes performance (absolutely gutless engine, moving our mass into the wrong position). If you can test ride it is the best way to choose (you are the one going to be riding it). Or if not, a bit of time understanding these concepts will allow you to make an informed choice as long as you know what you want from the bike in the first place.
Love the nerding out in this thread!
I'm on a split pivot at the moment (morewood sukuma, 150mm travel). It's an incredibly efficient platform because of the super high anti-squat and the natural suspension lockup from pedalling forces - I never use any platform damping. The natural suspension lockup might not be a positive for some, but it suits me/my riding style very well. Brake jack is almost non-existent. Downhill and coasting the suspension opens up and is very progressive/bottomless. My 150mm bike doesn't feel over burdened on DH tracks, although the axle path isn't particularly rearward, so it can get hung up on large square edge hits. The other trade off is a relatively large amount of chain growth (high single pivot). But the benefits definitely outweigh this i feel..
I've rolled through a few different suspension platforms trying to find something that suited my style.. Maestro on a 2012 trance was very efficient considering how plush it was - but it gets stuck in the mid-stroke cave and wallows like a fat chick in a bath of custard. :whistle: Faux-bar's suck, they either pedal well or descend well. Never both, haven't ridden a faux-bar I like.
VPP are good, but I think encourage lazyness because of how plush they are, they encourage plowing and struggle with direction change when compared to bikes with high anti squat. Not the most appropriate platform for shorter travel bikes either, they need more wheel travel to make the most of their design.
Either of the DW designs are superior in my book. The split pivot is simple, stiff and efficient - a much more playful platform. DW-link is considerably more plush. As someone else said, pick a bike that suits your sizing, geo requirements and style.
This is a good post, but I disagree on the split pivot part.
I'm on a split pivot at the moment (morewood sukuma, 150mm travel). It's an incredibly efficient platform because of the super high anti-squat and the natural suspension lockup from pedalling forces - I never use any platform damping. The natural suspension lockup might not be a positive for some, but it suits me/my riding style very well. Brake jack is almost non-existent. Downhill and coasting the suspension opens up and is very progressive/bottomless. My 150mm bike doesn't feel over burdened on DH tracks, although the axle path isn't particularly rearward, so it can get hung up on large square edge hits. The other trade off is a relatively large amount of chain growth (high single pivot). But the benefits definitely outweigh this i feel..
I've rolled through a few different suspension platforms trying to find something that suited my style.. Maestro on a 2012 trance was very efficient considering how plush it was - but it gets stuck in the mid-stroke cave and wallows like a fat chick in a bath of custard. :whistle: Faux-bar's suck, they either pedal well or descend well. Never both, haven't ridden a faux-bar I like.
VPP are good, but I think encourage lazyness because of how plush they are, they encourage plowing and struggle with direction change when compared to bikes with high anti squat. Not the most appropriate platform for shorter travel bikes either, they need more wheel travel to make the most of their design.
Either of the DW designs are superior in my book. The split pivot is simple, stiff and efficient - a much more playful platform. DW-link is considerably more plush. As someone else said, pick a bike that suits your sizing, geo requirements and style.
Rider_of_Bikes
Likes Dirt
What year is your zesty? It may be VPP as well...
Shadow Puppet
Likes Dirt
I think it was a 2009. It was 100% Horst link (FSR).
SF Trailboy
Likes Bikes and Dirt
This was one of the better bits for us mere mortals that I found
http://www.bikeradar.com/au/gear/article/buyers-guide-to-mountain-bike-suspension-part-2-28438/
This website is great, Antonio has posted a huge number of curves (output from commercially available linkage software), the google translate makes for some entertaining reading too
The example below is a nice comparison between specific bikes Split - Single - Virtual pivot (in this case KS link)
http://linkagedesign.blogspot.com.au/search/label/Devinci
Be prepared for some serious nerding...
Great post
I'm glad you like your Sukuma they are a terrific bike, you have actually reinforced all my points above.
There is no technical reason a Faux bar can't be configured to behave almost identically to your split pivot (I'm sure there are some good examples out there), apart from braking characteristics where there would generally be a small but arguably indistinguishable amount of lower anti-rise on your Morewood (depending on where you are in the travel because the graphs would have quite different slopes).
VPP actually have some of the highest anti-squat of all suspension designs, again it varies depending on the specific bike and setup but the characteristics you mention are probably more a function of the typical VPP regressive - progressive leverage ratio of the shock.
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agentninety3
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Maybe you should shower more?