Stop me from eating crap!

[pharmaboy]

Hi there - do your own research - find sites that really work on scientific data. There is some good stuff in this thread , but Also some absolute rubbish and quite a few wives tales in amongst it.

Btw bananas have huge energy value, and very few people seem concerned with fat! I would humbly suggest that controlling fats first and carbohydrates second and ignoring whether that carb is sugar or whatever- a carbs a carb

But do your own research!

 

[driftking]

Hi there - do your own research - find sites that really work on scientific data. There is some good stuff in this thread , but Also some absolute rubbish and quite a few wives tales in amongst it.

Btw bananas have huge energy value, and very few people seem concerned with fat! I would humbly suggest that controlling fats first and carbohydrates second and ignoring whether that carb is sugar or whatever- a carbs a carb

But do your own research!

Curious to hear your view on the rubbish, just interested. Along with MWI your posts are usually good to read or debate.

Also a carb is not a carb, while they have the same calorie value and they turn to glucose in the blood, the way and type of sugar you ingest can have a significant difference in how it affects the body. There is plenty of information and evidence for complex carbs. That's like saying protein is protein or a fat is a fat which is also wrong.

Unless I see scientific evidence that shows a diet of significant simple sugar and a equal diet of complex carbs over the course of years including blood work and insulin/sugar levels over time Id beg to differ. You need to consider how it is broken down also the nutrient value, eating simple sugars tend to come with poor to little nutrition, complex carbs tend to be packed with fiber and other nutrients.

Also we need fat i think its important to cut down saturated and trans and more specifically omega 6 but we should not loose the fat but replace them with monounsaturated fats and up the omega 3 to a more ideal ratio.
Sugar is not bad after rides or after a fast simple sugar can be a great choice but get them from a nutrient dense source.

 

[pharmaboy]

Carbs are carbs because the hard thing is calculating how much, what type is a nice to have but the driver of weight is energy. Many points have relevance to a diabetic or developing diabetic but not so much an average person .

It is needlessly complicating things - the diet world is obsessed with demonizing salt, sugars etc and processed food , these things aren't bad of themselves , they simply correlate with very high density foods. Salt was the real bad boy 15 years ago , less so today, saturated fats however have survived and remain the bad of western diet.

The insulin spike following sugar is a great biological process and while postulated to have a role in type2 d , the biggest correlator is being overweight , by far the strongest predictor! We have to separate issues of diabetes and issues of good health and balance that with realism and simplicity.

I would suggest that 105g of complex carb is worse for the average person than 100g of simple carb. Estimating energy is hard enough, it doesn't need to be harder.

 

[mtb101]

this is a very informative doco if you can find it.

Forks Over Knives: http://www.forksoverknives.com/ worth watching.

 

[driftking]

Carbs are carbs because the hard thing is calculating how much, what type is a nice to have but the driver of weight is energy. Many points have relevance to a diabetic or developing diabetic but not so much an average person .

It is needlessly complicating things - the diet world is obsessed with demonizing salt, sugars etc and processed food , these things aren't bad of themselves , they simply correlate with very high density foods. Salt was the real bad boy 15 years ago , less so today, saturated fats however have survived and remain the bad of western diet.

The insulin spike following sugar is a great biological process and while postulated to have a role in type2 d , the biggest correlator is being overweight , by far the strongest predictor! We have to separate issues of diabetes and issues of good health and balance that with realism and simplicity.

I would suggest that 105g of complex carb is worse for the average person than 100g of simple carb. Estimating energy is hard enough, it doesn't need to be harder.

In terms Of energy your spot on but a simple carb also gives you a burst and then a down, even for the healthy individual eating complex carbs and havin steady insulin and blood glucose has benefits in preventing possible disease along with improved energy with less crashes.
Remember we are talking about healthy diets not necessarily one where weight lost is major. I think though you need to consider that complex carbs are ideal, the rate of absorption and the way the body stores fat could come into play here, with a higher absorption rate and a big flood you have more hands of fat storage. Even if weight is the goal complex carbs provide less cravings with no spikes or drops, it offers sustained energy, less processing which results in more micronutrients.

As for salt, you still should avoid added salts. Rdi is 2grams a day and you can easily get 4-10times that in today's society. Let me just clear up you need sodium you should not cut salt put completely. That may increase with medical, environment and exercise factors.
You seem to be focused on the energy overall, for weight lose it makes a difference for sure but you can't
say that a 3000calorie diet of maccas vs home made healthy food is going to result In the same health.
Sugar has its places but in no way is it equal to that of complex as a main source, same as fat and proteins, they have the same caloric value but there are good and bad types of each.

There are ample health benefits for going to healthy options.
Weight is for sure a big factor but there are plenty of skinny and average people with health problems, regardless of weight we should still consider what we eat. Myself included my diet is not great all the time.

 

[Mywifesirrational]

Just a very keen interest, the plan is to go into the health and fitness sector as a career.

I recommend more of a rehabilitation degree Drift, I started in the health and fitness industry in the 90's and was appalled at the amount of crap that so called experts spew out and that was before I went to uni.

Rehab professions, better money and more stable work, more interesting/challenging work and a medicare provider number/bulk billing. I still do a bit of fitness training on the side as I enjoy it - especially if there are injuries involved, but am glad I am no longer in the fitness/health industry.

Hi there - do your own research - find sites that really work on scientific data. There is some good stuff in this thread , but Also some absolute rubbish and quite a few wives tales in amongst it.

Btw bananas have huge energy value, and very few people seem concerned with fat! I would humbly suggest that controlling fats first and carbohydrates second and ignoring whether that carb is sugar or whatever- a carbs a carb

But do your own research!

While I agree, the problem is the average person is unable to differentiate between the psuedoscience/marketing crap compared to good quality evidence based approaches.

Some of my earlier posts on RB around fitness topics such as stretching and core stability (two very misunderstood/heavily pseudo-science marketing) in which I quoted specific scientific literature, I was attacked for my views and lack of knowledge and even referencing the evidence to show I was not making stuff up.

I am a trained scientist in fitness/health/rehab and I still struggle myself sometimes separating the crap from quality -which means I need to read multiple journal articles or because I work in a research institute I can knock on the door of a Professor or two - something not many people are able to do. I don't think the average person stands a chance - and shit is marketed to maximise this.

Might be worth making a stickied post with a range of links to decent websites for the layman such as the better health channel, America's National Health Institute, AIS (particularly around sports nutrition), EXRX...

 

[pharmaboy]

Mwi, agree- the problem is if I pull out the stuff that I know is dubious then I just add to the dross and make it even harder for the op. I find govt funded websites are on the whole pretty good , and for sports ais is easily the best. Otoh anything to do with body building products seem s not the best

Strangely Wikipedia is actually pretty good on lots of topics - it warms my heart that Wikipedia actually works - but you need a little knowledge to help you to the right pages.

An interesting aside recently is the question mark over diet drinks and their stimulus towards hunger when the body finally figures out its been fooled by the sweet taste. On the pseudo science side we get aspartame causes ..........

Ultimately, the body can make a sows ear into a silk purse without breaking a sweat, and a stagnant human being can take the silk purse and make it into a sows ear of they watch tv all day

 

[driftking]

I recommend more of a rehabilitation degree Drift, I started in the health and fitness industry in the 90's and was appalled at the amount of crap that so called experts spew out and that was before I went to uni.

Rehab professions, better money and more stable work, more interesting/challenging work and a medicare provider number/bulk billing. I still do a bit of fitness training on the side as I enjoy it - especially if there are injuries involved, but am glad I am no longer in the fitness/health industry.

I will take that on board MWI, cheers.
I haven't decided on which path to go in the health sector,I was leaning towards nutrition/dietician,even a medical degree is still on the cards.
I also thoroughly enjoy the psychology behind sport and in general how the brain works and how it reacts to changes and diet.

I was leaning towards a double degree then chose one path for a masters and phd, got to get through the degree first though

I have such a big interest in the function of the body and development. That brings up the problem, There are a good 4-5 degrees I am interested in, I am going to take a trip to the uni to speak to someone down there about my options to see if I can narrow down the choices.

 

[Norco Maniac]

I recommend more of a rehabilitation degree Drift, I started in the health and fitness industry in the 90's and was appalled at the amount of crap that so called experts spew out and that was before I went to uni.

tell me about it. three diplomas and two cert III's plus half a cert IV and i still think most of the medical and associated industries are just that - industries driven by product and sales.

this is after coming to the professions via organic gardening, living off the grid, commercial herb growing and running landscaping businesses that designed urban food gardens.

oh and i live with two nurses - both the most unhealthy people, and their respective spouses - that i have ever come across.

 

[driftking]

tell me about it. three diplomas and two cert III's plus half a cert IV and i still think most of the medical and associated industries are just that - industries driven by product and sales.

this is after coming to the professions via organic gardening, living off the grid, commercial herb growing and running landscaping businesses that designed urban food gardens.

oh and i live with two nurses - both the most unhealthy people, and their respective spouses - that i have ever come across.

Easily driven by money what sucks is that its mirrored on the net, then when newbies decide to google they are bombarded with incorrect information.
Before I conclude on anything I try to look at multiple scientific studies, professional articles, forums not only what it does but why and how it works. I like to make sure that not only are the results proven but also real world proven, we have all heard of studies using impossible levels of one thing concentrated in a test tube.

What scares me is the lack of knowledge of people who are qualified to train other people. I'm not qualified in anyway not even a cert but id trust myself before some of the trainer out there

pharmaboy, have you got any studies on the simple vs complex debate, I am always willing to change my opinion and learn so quite interested in where your view comes from on that topic.

 

[pharmaboy]

pharmaboy, have you got any studies on the simple vs complex debate, I am always willing to change my opinion and learn so quite interested in where your view comes from on that topic.

inter99 looked at the association with diabetes, and found none . We know that brown bread causes less of an incretin effect than white bread, but what you seem to have is the assumption that in healthy people that that is bad. Populational assumptions seek to show correlation with diabetes, but this is a long bow to draw.

It may well be that complex as a rule is better than simple - but at the same time compare and contrast the commonly held view that complex is good in sport because of uptake with the AIS view on these things when they actually studied performance rather than applied a set of logical arguments. Its the test that matters.

If there is positives in complex carbs that is a strong, its that they tend to correlate with increased fibre - but you must remove fibre from the experiment to identify whats going on. Hell, taking protein with simple carbs has the same effect on slowing uptake as well - but no-one screams that one from the rooftops (nor labels their food as such)

Behaviourly, its a complexity that doesnt help - people think they can therefore eat more carbs as long as they are complex rather than simple - this is the wrong message IMO - thats why i wrote it above, not for the minutae of the argument but from the practical perspective of its not worth persuing - total energy is however. A carrot is carb, and so is a tablespoon of sugar, as is a banana.

Another one that jumps out for me is "organic" <<enter product you want to sell here>> for 1.4*normal price - we live in the age of widespread paranoia - "natural" is not better, its just an adjective that people get warm fuzzy feelings about and associating it makes people feel better.

The place where you will live longest, is the western country with modern medicine loads of high tech processed foods, and technology/pesticide driven agricultural practices. Within those countries, you can be at the RHS of the bell curve by exercising a little everyday and not being overweight. living to a hundred sux btw, you're body might make it, but chances are your brain will be farked by 85.

 

[driftking]

inter99 looked at the association with diabetes, and found none . We know that brown bread causes less of an incretin effect than white bread, but what you seem to have is the assumption that in healthy people that that is bad. Populational assumptions seek to show correlation with diabetes, but this is a long bow to draw.

It may well be that complex as a rule is better than simple - but at the same time compare and contrast the commonly held view that complex is good in sport because of uptake with the AIS view on these things when they actually studied performance rather than applied a set of logical arguments. Its the test that matters.

If there is positives in complex carbs that is a strong, its that they tend to correlate with increased fibre - but you must remove fibre from the experiment to identify whats going on. Hell, taking protein with simple carbs has the same effect on slowing uptake as well - but no-one screams that one from the rooftops (nor labels their food as such)

Behaviourly, its a complexity that doesnt help - people think they can therefore eat more carbs as long as they are complex rather than simple - this is the wrong message IMO - thats why i wrote it above, not for the minutae of the argument but from the practical perspective of its not worth persuing - total energy is however. A carrot is carb, and so is a tablespoon of sugar, as is a banana.

Another one that jumps out for me is "organic" <<enter product you want to sell here>> for 1.4*normal price - we live in the age of widespread paranoia - "natural" is not better, its just an adjective that people get warm fuzzy feelings about and associating it makes people feel better.

The place where you will live longest, is the western country with modern medicine loads of high tech processed foods, and technology/pesticide driven agricultural practices. Within those countries, you can be at the RHS of the bell curve by exercising a little everyday and not being overweight. living to a hundred sux btw, you're body might make it, but chances are your brain will be farked by 85.

Do you have a link to the study? From what I understand the test would need to be extensively long given insulin resistance takes quite a while to develop.

I think for sure the complex vs simple debate comes down to the way in which it is ingested, I would agree that the reason complex carbs are Superior is because they come in conjunction with fiber and other nutrients. I think we need to look at this practically in real world sense, by that I mean we cant ingest complex carbs on there own, were as sugar we can. Complex carbs whether or not due to the carbs them selves or the fiber in side are a better choice or energy and overall body composition. Are there any studies that also look at weight gain or lose on a complex vs simple diet? That would be interesting to see as well.
I think in terms of putting things into practice complex carbs have to be superior even if we are not comparing carbs the nutrient profile in a complex carb is much healthier than a lolly pop aha.
Have to note to those reading there are complex carbs with High GI ratings so not all complex carbs have a slow digestion rate. potatoes for one have a high GI than table sugar.

You bring up a good point about people thinking they can eat more because they are complex, complex carbs are also suggested when gaining weight, A carb is 4 calories regardless of what type you eat, cant debate that. I still see evidence though that some types of fats or carbs are more prone to be stored or have less burn off time due to faster storage, I have not looked extensively into that though.
One thing interesting is coconut oils or butter, while it is saturated it is also a medium chain which isn't prone to being stored? I think ill be looking at the structure of foods next for my research and how that effect digestion rates in a normal diet not isolated.

I personally still like the idea of organic, I mean the ability for the body to store and overtime be affected by these things are something that I am concerned about, It is something that makes me wonder that why over time are we seeing increases in many disease, Part of that has to be due to improved recognition and improved understanding, I briefly remember hearing that the additives can precede allergies too but not certain to which ones. Whether or not organic does offer benefits I know for sure that it lasts a lot longer in the fridge aha, woolies food is dead in a few days. Organic and natural also appeal to me not just on the pesticides and unpronounceable additives but I find that the major players like corn syrup and salt is significantly lower in these products. Overall I find they have a better overall nutrient profile then the additive filled versions. Again the more processed a product is tends to also come with more stripping of nutrients. organic is something that is difficult but i prefer to lean on the side of caution, plus longer lasting food means less waste

 

[Art Vanderlay]

Have been eating much better. Thanks for the advice.

I have indulged in few little sweets, naughty I know, but I have certainly cut back a lot. Since the start of this thread I have only had 1 can of soft drink, and that was at about 120km of a 135km training ride. It gave me a nice kick for the last few km's.

I will continue on and aim to improve my healthy eating habits. Shit time of the year I know with Xmas, work break ups, catch ups, etc.... December is usually the month of over indulging. I am also going for no booze for December also. No much of a drinker these days anyway.

Eat healthy, feel better....

 

[driftking]

The killer will be all the food coming our way. Even though I can do with some meat on my bones I'd like to do it in a healthy manner, Christmas always brings good food. Remember though being healthy is a lifestyle and it won't be the end for you to indulge in a meal or a day (Christmas) of bad habits.
Christmas I eat all I want and it's the only time of the year I consume alcohol in deserts
Of course I encourage you to keep on the path but don't be so hard on yourself if you do slip or if your going to not enjoy Christmas day just keep it to Christmas day not Christmas week haha. The important thing is that you get straight back on your healthy path after, Maybe just do a few extra kms the day after too.


I find that now as I have gotten more conscious of what goes in my body even when I decide to indulge I find myself eating less and still making healthier choices.

 

[Timothy78]

I have never any habit of junk food. I am a vegetarian, and i daily eat vegetarian recepies. I make with recepeis with fresh fruit and vegetables. I feel fresh psychologically and physically. And it plays vital roll to maintain weight etc.

 

[juan]

Keep it simple...if the "caveman" didn't eat it you do not eat it. :hungry:

 

[pharmaboy]

Keep it simple...if the "caveman" didn't eat it you do not eat it. :hungry:

Caveman, average life expectancy if he survived to adulthood, 34
Australian, average life expectancy if he gets to adulthood, 84

or 18 and 80 if you go from birth . A paleolithic diet also means almost no green leafy vegetables, no green beans, but meat and fruit, and propably no small amount of insects - enjoy.....

 

[hdtvkss]

I have never any habit of junk food. I am a vegetarian, and i daily eat vegetarian recepies. I make with recepeis with fresh fruit and vegetables. I feel fresh psychologically and physically. And it plays vital roll to maintain weight etc.

golf clap for you then....

 

[Mywifesirrational]

Caveman, average life expectancy if he survived to adulthood, 34
Australian, average life expectancy if he gets to adulthood, 84

or 18 and 80 if you go from birth . A paleolithic diet also means almost no green leafy vegetables, no green beans, but meat and fruit, and propably no small amount of insects - enjoy.....

Well said!

The only decent proven diet is a well rounded with a large variety of foods eaten in moderation. People (because they read a book by a so called expert) seem to want to complicate what is essence very simple. The psychology of poor eating habits, now that is complicated.

 

[downhillar]

I have never any habit of junk food. I am a vegetarian, and i daily eat vegetarian recepies. I make with recepeis with fresh fruit and vegetables. I feel fresh psychologically and physically. And it plays vital roll to maintain weight etc.

golf clap for you then....

Lolololol

I have gone through cycles of being a junk food addict and then having a really good diet. I find it amazing how if I've been healthy for a couple of months and I eat a big mac or a snickers bar or something it makes me feel like throwing up.. there must be some f'd up gear in those foods:nono: