Pivot Firebird vs Nomad 4? What would you choose and why

[hifiandmtb]

And yet...my mate has a carbon 429 with cracking around the main frame pivot points even your grannie could find yet has been told "all normal, it won't fail".

At least this whole discovery is on record (inside he warranty period) so maybe if it does die in while he'll be covered.


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[cramhobart]

Is it just me or is this stuff just more common in carbon?

I've seen the Santa Cruz destruction tests and know about the squillions that have gone into r&d but I can't shake the impression that the margin for error with the carbon frames is too small. Just a small error with design, layup, glueing metal interfaces or getting a stick in the wrong spot and snap.

My cynicism suspects that the carbon frames provide a neat piece of designed obscelesence. I can't imagine we will see too many carbon enduro frames rocking around with a 10+ years service life.



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Sorry- I should have specified, mine was an alloy frame, and it was the pivot bolt that snapped.

 

[Oddjob]

Sorry- I should have specified, mine was an alloy frame, and it was the pivot bolt that snapped.

Nasty. There goes my plan to get an Al Santa Cruz as my next bike.

My point still stands though. I wonder if carbon frames are getting too light or if the QC on them is not good enough, even with the premium brands, to address the very thin margins for error. Or tin hat time, the glued in pivots and press fit bbs are only meant to last 2-5 years.

Al frames break too of course, but there are plenty of 15 year old Hecklers and Turners kicking around.

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[link1896]

Nasty. There goes my plan to get an Al Santa Cruz as my next bike.

My point still stands though. I wonder if carbon frames are getting too light or if the QC on them is not good enough, even with the premium brands, to address the very thin margins for error. Or tin hat time, the glued in pivots and press fit bbs are only meant to last 2-5 years.

Al frames break too of course, but there are plenty of 15 year old Hecklers and Turners kicking around.

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The Melbourne carbon repair dude, sorry, can't remember his name, mentioned one problem with carbon frame QC includes the lack of ultrasound scans, which would pick up many defects.

Possibly manufacturers don't want to know about minor issues that would quadruple the QC rejection rate, slashing profits.

I've just had a read of the pivot warranty t's and c's, 10 year warranty on frames now. Of course, an enduro bike being used as intended can easily be one mans "abuse" and another's "normal ride"

 

[Mr Crudley]

Is it just me or is this stuff just more common in carbon?

Well, I kind of agree, the cat is well out of the bag now. I still have a now antique alloy Heckler and have two riding buddies with similar vintage SL's and Bullits and they are still all motoring along.

My cynicism suspects that the carbon frames provide a neat piece of designed obscelesence. I can't imagine we will see too many carbon enduro frames rocking around with a 10+ years service life.

Will be interesting to see.

Cue a future business opportunity for portable CF frame X-rays for internal or undetectable hidden damage. Although a strong warranty policy should fix most issues. I just get all pissy remembering hearing that CF will give us cheaper frames since we don't have to pay an expensive, skilled welder and suddenly for reasons unknown the CF frame prices still hit the stratosphere anyhow.

 

[Oddjob]

I just get all pissy remembering hearing that CF will give us cheaper frames since we don't have to pay an expensive, skilled welder and suddenly for reasons unknown the CF frame prices still hit the stratosphere anyhow.

Hahahaha. I'm just a dopey economist and I know that's bullshit.

Skilled carbon designers, mold makers, cutters layers, gluers etc etc etc are expensive too.

It took Boeing 25 years to develop the 787 and some airlines still won't accept planes that are not built in their Seattle factory because of the skill level of the workers.


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[Mr Crudley]

Hahahaha. I'm just a dopey economist and I know that's bullshit.

Skilled carbon designers, mold makers, cutters layers, gluers etc etc etc are expensive too.

Great, so labour costs are right up your spreadsheet. A large motive of CF products is cost hence why not much, if any at all higher stuff is done stateside. Even Taiwan now can't match the labour cost of mainland Chinese worker which is what it is all about in the end. Asia now has more of a skillset in CF and capitalists like cheap labour costs which would be a huge saving over Jed the welder. If torching up Ti was cheaper in the US and CF in China then none of this would matter.

It took Boeing 25 years to develop the 787 and some airlines still won't accept planes that are not built in their Seattle factory because of the skill level of the workers.

Sure, one is a $USD400m per plane with less than 1k sold globally with much more than just CF with US salaries behind it to assemble it from parts made globally. Boeing don't put the 787 together anywhere else except the US.

The other is sub $USD4k sold in higher volumes and bugger all complexity in comparison and made in China.

If you are going to compare CF things then atleast try to keep it in the same ballpark. Pick on a only the high end Colnago's or Pinarello's still made in Italy where they would have comparable wages to the US worker. Italians aren't going to make bike pr0n for nothing either. They ask for $3k+ on a good day which is in the ballpark of Chinese made SC where wages aren't anywhere near what a US or Italian worker would expect.

Regardless the quality would be comparable where ever it is made. The deal from what I understand with CF is that the higher rigidity has trade off with lesser impact resistance. I'll cite it if I can find it.
We all now well by now that CF will flex a bit but does go suddenly schnappen in a big way. Usually at a repeated high stress joint or area from a previous impact from what I've seen.

 

[Oddjob]

I think you missed my point.

Al bikes were already made in China, Taiwan, Vietnam etc. Replacing welders with people laying up carbon fibre isn't going to lead to an order of magnitude difference in labour costs when the manufacturing base is in the same country. What will lead to a big difference is reducing man hours or reducing skill level but CF seems to be quite high skill and labour intensive to get right.

Maybe they aren't getting it right on purpose. If you can get people to pay a premium for a lighter product that is cost competitive but less durable then you are laughing as a manufacturer. If that reduced durability is due to cutting corners and saving more costs then all the better. The key here is that they are maximising profit. The underlying cost only matters insofar as that.

The 787 example was just to illustrate that the planes from the Everett and South Carolina facilities have the same r&d and list price, but some airlines won't accept South Carolina planes. This is because they believe the workers at Everett build a better main fuselarge and do a better assembly job. I.e. there is a large human factor in the quality of CF and its handling. Note the sub assemblies for the two plants come from the same sources.

Worker skill and CF quality is super important in a $400m plane. But I still care that my $5k bike isn't going to fall apart too.

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[Nambra]

An update for those interested - Santa Cruz, through their AU distributor Lusty Industries, has now agreed to replace the cracked front triangle of my Hightower 'as a sign of good faith'. This is the appropriate response, just took too much posturing to get there.

I have the feeling Lusty will handle future claims a bit differently with a far better outcome for the consumer. As for Santa Cruz, their response was quick, professional and positive. They seem the real deal, reinforcing part of the reason I chose Santa Cruz in the first place.

Just make sure the replacement front triangle is a colour match to the old frame. New HT colours just came out so there might be a shortage of the old frame colours.

 

[hifiandmtb]

Pick on a only the high end Colnago's or Pinarello's still made in Italy where they would have comparable wages to the US worker.

I was trying to work out where the raw Colnago frame product comes from the other day...all I could work out was that the carbon tubes magically appear in the Italian factory & it starts from there.

Hmmm...

 

[aanon]

And yet...my mate has a carbon 429 with cracking around the main frame pivot points even your grannie could find yet has been told "all normal, it won't fail".

At least this whole discovery is on record (inside he warranty period) so maybe if it does die in while he'll be covered.


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A mate of mine had some paint cracking around the lower head tube area on a 2 yo Stumpy and Spesh were more than happy to replace it even though both parties did not consider it a structural problem, gotta be happy with that.

 

[B Rabbit]

[video=youtube_share;2tkqYPJ89Uc]http://youtu.be/2tkqYPJ89Uc[/video]

Still haven't switched out to one of these yet. If you have a used large frame of either of these let me know

 

[EsPeGe]

After the sidetrack I was keen to find out which way you’d gone. Still on the fence?????

 

[ButtersNZ]

[video]

Still haven't switched out to one of these yet. If you have a used large frame of either of these let me know

I love that one of the main compliments of the Newmad in that video is that the suspension performs like a DW link

I thought I would throw in my 2c.

I ride a '17 Firebird and my friend is on the Newmad. We both couldn't be happier and there's nothing that either bike can't do. I've had some top-ten finishes in local DH races on the FB, and recently finished a 2 day enduro race with 3000m of climbing - climbing is a piece of cake.

The lack of a water bottle holder is a drawback if you do shorter rides, but normally I'm out for a good 3 hours so a hydration pack would be worn regardless.

A few notes - It took me a while to get the rear suspension performing optimally. The Fox/Pivot recommendations give you a very plush ride that does well on big hits and probably in a park setting, but for a ride that takes you through a mixture of grade 3 to 6 natural trails, it just didn't feel lively enough most of the time. I used a shockwiz and got close to where I'm at now - which is truly an amazing platform for all conditions. I'll never touch it again!

There can be an issue with stones collecting around the shock linkage and scratching the carbon finish. Since complaints started, Pivot developed and provide a free cover for the linkage, but I got away with 3m mastic tape.

Chris Cocalis (Pivot CEO) and other Pivot employees frequent the Pivot forum on mtbr and will weigh in on any issues people are having with the bikes. I've even seen an instance where Cocalis actually called someone who had difficulty getting a replacement bolt and refunded all their shipping and muck around costs. I wouldn't dream of that level of customer care from a brand, but there it is. I missed out on the 10 year frame warranty (just started being offered recently) but I'm not too phased - that's what insurance is for.

I'm not aware of any issues with the Nomad, other than that I see approximately 1 million of them every time I hit the trails

 

[B Rabbit]

Decision made, new (to me) frame on the way. Will post a build up shortly

Thanks for all your inputs

 

[Ultra Lord]

Well, what is it you filthy tease?

 

[Zaf]

Well, what is it you filthy tease?

 

[B Rabbit]

Time will tell, time will tell.

Time will also tell whether I can afford to eat for the next month.

 

[EsPeGe]

Bastard. I wanna know. I hate surprises!!!!

 

[ButtersNZ]

You're in for a treat either way! I lined my Pivot up next to my friends custom Newmad this weekend. The FB has the edge on climbing but they ride so similarly down hill, it's OK to just go with which one looks better to you. I look forward to hearing your impressions, whatever you've chosen.