le Official 2007 Tour de France thread
- Thread starter alchemist
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ihatescarves
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That reminds me - has anyone else noticed the number of erectile dysfunction ads ("Stiff and Stiff") SBS are showing during the tour? Those Viagra people (or whoever it is behind those ads) must think it's a real problem for cyclists...
treggs
Treggs Tuned
Anyone got anything to say about the Tour?
Sorry, couldn't help myself.
Yep... GO CADEL GO!!!
Has that been said yet?
alpinestar12
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I have three things to say:Yep... GO CADEL GO!!!
Has that been said yet?
Go Cadel you Australian powerhouse!
Where's Lance?
and
Damn Euro Drug users!
Some very interesting posts regarding where to draw the line in transfusions...
like, what if it's your own blood from before the tour, as was mentioned.
Thats a really good point, and not one I'd considered, all I can say is that the transfusion of one's blood must have a significant effect on performance, or it wouldn't be done.
How on earth are you going to test to see if an athlete has got "new" blood, even though its his own, unless he was tested the day before, and a difference in "nutrients" or whatever is found?
Interesting point about sport not being "fair".... I'd add that I'm disappointed that once again, often it's the team with the most money who is the most competitive, due to having the money to research "masking agents" or drugs that cannot be tested for or whatever... Makes it difficult for anyone else to enter the sport and attempt some sort of competition. Thats why they start new sports like "aussie cars" and why they're so much fun to watch, sure the rules are so restrictive that theres practically no breathing room, but at least its a sport that shows the true skill of the "athlete" and not his machine, or budget.
That being said, its not something that can be implemented in a sport such as cycling.... as it's the "athlete" that is the engine! a tough one for sure.
G
G
like, what if it's your own blood from before the tour, as was mentioned.
Thats a really good point, and not one I'd considered, all I can say is that the transfusion of one's blood must have a significant effect on performance, or it wouldn't be done.
How on earth are you going to test to see if an athlete has got "new" blood, even though its his own, unless he was tested the day before, and a difference in "nutrients" or whatever is found?
Interesting point about sport not being "fair".... I'd add that I'm disappointed that once again, often it's the team with the most money who is the most competitive, due to having the money to research "masking agents" or drugs that cannot be tested for or whatever... Makes it difficult for anyone else to enter the sport and attempt some sort of competition. Thats why they start new sports like "aussie cars" and why they're so much fun to watch, sure the rules are so restrictive that theres practically no breathing room, but at least its a sport that shows the true skill of the "athlete" and not his machine, or budget.
That being said, its not something that can be implemented in a sport such as cycling.... as it's the "athlete" that is the engine! a tough one for sure.
G
G
Vino tested positive to homologous blood doping; taking blood from someone else and transfusing into your body. The one where you just transfuse your own blood that was taken earlier is autologous blood doping and is obviously, much harder to catch and a lot less effective.
Without getting too technical; each of us has a kind of 'unique' pattern/marker/characteristic (call it whatever you want really) to our red blood cells, caused by antigens. These antigens can be tagged with a fluorescent dye. A riders blood sample is tagged with said dye and the red blood cells are compared, if they've all got the same pattern/marker/characteristic then it's obviously all his own blood, but if 2 (or more, eeeeew) patterns emerge consistently within the sample it's pretty obvious that there's more than one persons blood in their system. As I understand it, the test is extremely accurate and it's nearly impossible to return a false-positive result. I'd be almost certain that Vino's B-sample will confirm his first.
Vino's 'explanation' of how two people's blood magically got into his system because of his crash makes pretty much no sense whatsoever.
Without getting too technical; each of us has a kind of 'unique' pattern/marker/characteristic (call it whatever you want really) to our red blood cells, caused by antigens. These antigens can be tagged with a fluorescent dye. A riders blood sample is tagged with said dye and the red blood cells are compared, if they've all got the same pattern/marker/characteristic then it's obviously all his own blood, but if 2 (or more, eeeeew) patterns emerge consistently within the sample it's pretty obvious that there's more than one persons blood in their system. As I understand it, the test is extremely accurate and it's nearly impossible to return a false-positive result. I'd be almost certain that Vino's B-sample will confirm his first.
Vino's 'explanation' of how two people's blood magically got into his system because of his crash makes pretty much no sense whatsoever.
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ozelise
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alchemist
Manly Warringah MTB Club
There are two ways AFAICT.
Firstly there is the heamocrit level. this is a measure of how many red blood cells are in a volume of blood. You put more blood in, the body can get rid of the water in the plasma faster than the red blood cells. It is not that they have new blood its that the blood now has a higher oxygen carrying capacity.
The second relies on the fact that when blood is taken from the body and store (frozen) it breaks down in a reasonably predictable way, detection of the breakdown products are considered as evidence of doping.
Thanks for the explanation, that makes good sense to me. I figured it must have something to do wih the red blood cell count, or oxygen carrying capacity, as thats one of the main functions of the blood of course, but you even used all the big words! (wheelbarrow is the largest word in my vocabulary)
Gotta get me some of them heamocrit's!
G
Gotta get me some of them heamocrit's!
G
Im aware of the above uses of it. But doesnt testosterone aslo speed up your recovery rate aswell?
Dissapointing final week to the tour i must say, it started out fairly scandal free, now all the spiders are coming out of the closet.
Dumbellina
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These are the tests that WADA uses. But as the Tyler Hamilton case argued (in that case it was also some-elses blood, like Vino), its one thing to have the tests, but to be reliable enough to sanction riders, all possible innocent explanations of a positive result must be excluded. Hamilton argued because he claimed to be a chimeral twin (where the DNA of the dead unborn twin remains in his body), it was up to the prosecution to prove that the positive result was not because he was a chimeral twin. Hamilton lost, Rogers got gold.
Vino's defence of blood exchange in a crash is farcical, but shows that riders are thinking of possible defences to the certainty of DNA/RNA based testing for homoglomous blood doping.
As to haemocrit levels, the UCI and TDF have tested for this for years as a means of finding possible EPO cheats before 2000 (when the EPO test was developed - before its was any rider with a 'crit count over 50). But riders like the current Columbian polka dot jersey wearer (I forget his ten word long name!) have naturally high 'crit levels from living and training at altitude. What you would be looking for is an unnatural change in 'crit levels.
The degradation products from freezing/thawing of blood is the most accurate way. But doctors aware of this test could mask them or remove them, prior to re-injection. This is perhaps why those involve with Dr Saiz never tested positive to blood doping.
Here is the critical question, freezing and storing blood damages the very cells in the rider's own blood that they are trying to re-inject and revitalise the blood of tired riders. What, therefore, is the real competitive edge a small increase in RBC? Does that competitive edge warrant it being considered a doping offence?
dunk
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It certainly does, I lived at altitude (sleeping at 1500m with daily trips to over 3500m) for a 6 week period a few years ago. When I returned to sea level I have never been fitter or faster in my life. I just wish the effects lasted longer. Having experienced that I can see the huge benefit that would be gained from transfusions/EPO use, god it would be tempting....
I guess it is possible - but it would be a stupid move given the rules.
Is Haemocrit short for haemocriterium?
McBain
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You need to lose heaps of blood before they transfuse. Plus if that was the case, they would have said so.
dunk
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Or they can live and train at altitude for the same effect.