cokeonspecialtwodollars
Fartes of Portingale
Butchered an old monitor stand for the 90 degree detent swivel... back on track.
BIKE RACKS AND CARRIERS FOR CARS MEGATHREAD - all questions asked and answered here
- Thread starter THE Manik Man
- Start date
Butchered an old monitor stand for the 90 degree detent swivel... back on track.
Stredda
Runs naked through virgin scrub
Sikaflex is the solution!
Jordy
RYD4LF
hey guys. Just to clear a couple of points up.
The Deathracks thing has grown from something I thought I’d sell a handful of into a fully functioning business in a very short amount of time, from the get go I’ve insisted competent welders are to assemble. Ive even pushed to build a network of insured qualified fabricators with a mountain biking background to be able to send the work to in a very troublesome time for many people with work. It is an evolving product - which again I expected 6 weeks ago to sell a handful of.
In regards to the terrible welds on said rack I slid on into his DMs - he was not ignored whilst I’ll gladly publicly shame the Jerry’s with something negative to say. I don’t do it to genuine people giving things a go. Like taking photos and publicly posting them to a forum…. I encourage anyone building the racks to show me for that very reason. If you cannot weld I’m more than happy calling it out. Unfortunately weeding these people out is very hard to do - however they would already be attempting to butcher something together. Again I’ve insisted competent welders build.
Moorey - I appreciate the kind words on my fabrication works, you were quite happy having a public back and forth about your opinion on the product, to which I messaged and said I’m not interested in doing with you to which you didn’t respond instead again publicly posted about it just on a forum this time.
Again - deathracks is an evolving product to which I never expected to gain so much momentum. I’m a one man workshop designing and supplying a product that not only helps people get out riding, keeps money in their pockets, puts money in other small businesses pockets and most importantly feeds my family. Whilst it isn’t perfect. I’m working my ass off to get it there.
Just to clarify - since about 2 weeks in. The baskets were redesigned to be a 3/4 wrap around design which takes the reliance off the weld for strength. As pictured below.
I’ve also now installed a large industrial tumbler for processing all parts - no more sharp edges. Some minor weld prep may be needed however it’s minimised.
Any queries trials or tribulations I’m more than happy addressing and discussing - I don’t care for the bickering bullshit over forums and frankly it’s what ruins mountain biking for a lot of people. ( and I should know as once upon a time I was a forum rat ) but I think this should clear up a few concerns.
The Deathracks thing has grown from something I thought I’d sell a handful of into a fully functioning business in a very short amount of time, from the get go I’ve insisted competent welders are to assemble. Ive even pushed to build a network of insured qualified fabricators with a mountain biking background to be able to send the work to in a very troublesome time for many people with work. It is an evolving product - which again I expected 6 weeks ago to sell a handful of.
In regards to the terrible welds on said rack I slid on into his DMs - he was not ignored whilst I’ll gladly publicly shame the Jerry’s with something negative to say. I don’t do it to genuine people giving things a go. Like taking photos and publicly posting them to a forum…. I encourage anyone building the racks to show me for that very reason. If you cannot weld I’m more than happy calling it out. Unfortunately weeding these people out is very hard to do - however they would already be attempting to butcher something together. Again I’ve insisted competent welders build.
Moorey - I appreciate the kind words on my fabrication works, you were quite happy having a public back and forth about your opinion on the product, to which I messaged and said I’m not interested in doing with you to which you didn’t respond instead again publicly posted about it just on a forum this time.
Again - deathracks is an evolving product to which I never expected to gain so much momentum. I’m a one man workshop designing and supplying a product that not only helps people get out riding, keeps money in their pockets, puts money in other small businesses pockets and most importantly feeds my family. Whilst it isn’t perfect. I’m working my ass off to get it there.
Just to clarify - since about 2 weeks in. The baskets were redesigned to be a 3/4 wrap around design which takes the reliance off the weld for strength. As pictured below.
I’ve also now installed a large industrial tumbler for processing all parts - no more sharp edges. Some minor weld prep may be needed however it’s minimised.
Any queries trials or tribulations I’m more than happy addressing and discussing - I don’t care for the bickering bullshit over forums and frankly it’s what ruins mountain biking for a lot of people. ( and I should know as once upon a time I was a forum rat ) but I think this should clear up a few concerns.
Here's my take on this.
@Jordy you have put a product on the market that is diy. People who buy this are likely doing so because they want to keep costs down and it allows them to buy a vertical rack that they otherwise may not be able to afford. Or they are masochists. Same same.
I don't know what instructions and information you provide but I have no doubt that somewhere along the line accessories like a bike rack are covered either generically or specifically by an ADR which will be backed up by a welding standard. In the old days it would be 1554 and minimum welding standard is GP which not a single mm of that weld complies with.
Whether you like it or not I hope you have given that information to buyers and have given details on the welding required, size of fillet, preparation required, consumables etc. In a litigious world you probably need to supply a PQR and WPS.
If you haven't and there is a problem because old mate's rack falls apart and someone has a significant crash because of the debris then you may well find yourself in a spot of trouble.
I accept that you have sent private messages to the person concerned. I hope that means he had some competent welding done but unfortunately human nature being human nature he may or may not do anything and if he does more than likely it is to throw a bit more bird shit there which wont help. What it has guaranteed is that they wont post any more pics of the wonderful rack they have made and the open comments will ensure that others don't post up pics of shit workmanship.
I would build one of these in a heartbeat if it was something I wanted and save whatever the cost of fab and surface treatment added to the price, in fact I made my own rack adaption of my iSi rack to sit on my camper. I am just concerned that there are more of your racks out there with similar issues and if you made that possible without covering your arse and giving detailed support and guidance then you may well get a knock on the door.
By the way if you think forum bickering ruins mountain biking maybe you are spending too much time in front of a screen and aren't riding enough.
@Jordy you have put a product on the market that is diy. People who buy this are likely doing so because they want to keep costs down and it allows them to buy a vertical rack that they otherwise may not be able to afford. Or they are masochists. Same same.
I don't know what instructions and information you provide but I have no doubt that somewhere along the line accessories like a bike rack are covered either generically or specifically by an ADR which will be backed up by a welding standard. In the old days it would be 1554 and minimum welding standard is GP which not a single mm of that weld complies with.
Whether you like it or not I hope you have given that information to buyers and have given details on the welding required, size of fillet, preparation required, consumables etc. In a litigious world you probably need to supply a PQR and WPS.
If you haven't and there is a problem because old mate's rack falls apart and someone has a significant crash because of the debris then you may well find yourself in a spot of trouble.
I accept that you have sent private messages to the person concerned. I hope that means he had some competent welding done but unfortunately human nature being human nature he may or may not do anything and if he does more than likely it is to throw a bit more bird shit there which wont help. What it has guaranteed is that they wont post any more pics of the wonderful rack they have made and the open comments will ensure that others don't post up pics of shit workmanship.
I would build one of these in a heartbeat if it was something I wanted and save whatever the cost of fab and surface treatment added to the price, in fact I made my own rack adaption of my iSi rack to sit on my camper. I am just concerned that there are more of your racks out there with similar issues and if you made that possible without covering your arse and giving detailed support and guidance then you may well get a knock on the door.
By the way if you think forum bickering ruins mountain biking maybe you are spending too much time in front of a screen and aren't riding enough.
moorey
call me Mia
I got no message, dude.
I’ll reiterate though…my concern has never been with your work, quite the contrary, as I’ve repeatedly said…it’s the cowboys who think they can weld, having a crack themselves. A forum is a forum to talk about things….I didn’t continue on FB after you responded, and felt I’d made my point. I think I’ve only mentioned if on here when raised by others. That’s a forum. I think this place is an open and honest discussion with mainly people who know what they’re on about, unlike FB.
A broken rack loaded with bikes on the freeway is no small matter.
I personally couldn’t sleep knowing my business and reputation relied on people who fit forks backwards. I’m glad you’re on here to discuss though. Godspeed.
Jordy
RYD4LF
you literally posted on here that I started messaging you - after you’ve publicly named me as pictured below without me knowing. I find it very hard to believe someone who has a collection of old oranges is worried about welds cracking when he wants to be…. But I’ll reiterate again - I appreciate the compliments on my fabrication work. Fortunately though your opinion on my business as a steel product supplier is irrelevant. Please do voice your concerns in person though at Green valley this weekend and I can take you through the actual product design, legalities, Australian standards, my main customer base…. The list can go on. But I won’t be bickering with you on here. I’d also appreciate not being mentioned without an option to defend myself in future.
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@Jordy I respect that you're building a business and feeding your family. However, I don't see how your insistence on good welding and calling people out online makes any difference to the safety of the general road using public. The cowboys will just ignore you and continue to use your product however they choose. As @Dales Cannon has explained, you have a number of legal responsibilities here (not to mention moral responsibilities given that the failure of your product has a high likelihood of leading to severe injury or death), that take no account for your intentions.
I understand that this is a new business and it's growing fast. But that doesn't reduce the impact of your actions and decisions should things go southward, and it seems that outcome is a real plausibility. This is the first time I've seen your product and I can tell you straight up, I will not be driving behind any car that has one of these racks on it, because I am not willing to trust the workmanship of an unqualified welder. To be honest, I'm pretty surprised that this kind of product is even street legal.
**** So you posted your reply above whilst I was writing this one. I gotta say, bro, most everyone else here, including @moorey are conducting themselves in a pretty mature way. I don't think anyone here is bickering, but your most recent post comes pretty close!
I understand that this is a new business and it's growing fast. But that doesn't reduce the impact of your actions and decisions should things go southward, and it seems that outcome is a real plausibility. This is the first time I've seen your product and I can tell you straight up, I will not be driving behind any car that has one of these racks on it, because I am not willing to trust the workmanship of an unqualified welder. To be honest, I'm pretty surprised that this kind of product is even street legal.
**** So you posted your reply above whilst I was writing this one. I gotta say, bro, most everyone else here, including @moorey are conducting themselves in a pretty mature way. I don't think anyone here is bickering, but your most recent post comes pretty close!
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Jordy
RYD4LF
Dale, just for a little context to this situation.
My background is in custom vehicle suspension design for high end custom cars, including supplying components to workshops all around the country to engineers specifications. Working alongside several vehicle engineers & even supplying their own personal vehicle and designs.
Prior to this - I was heavily involved in a major scaffold manufacturing company - including all aspects Australian standards specifications regarding kwikstage scaffolding manufacture. it may surprise you however the standard for building scaffold, trailers, chassis repairs. Etc. all merely requires a competent welder - no relation to as1756 which is “weld to code” as pressure welding. (I do also have my pressure welding ticket)
Again prior to this - I part owned and operated a major bicycle store for many years too.
My T’s are dotted and my I’s are crossed here.
Nevertheless. The liability falls on the vehicle owner and the welder. I have from day 1, only recommended customers utilise competent welders to assemble these products. Much like the steel supply shop is not at fault when your hitch mount fails - nor would the trailer company who has allowed it possible to adapt a rack to it which voids the original designs.
the bickering issue is because these forums promote opinions on situations. Not facts. hence I have defended myself after being unfairly mentioned by Moorey personally - and won’t be continuing it. You may note I haven’t posted on here in years.
The direction of deathracks is 100% pushing in supply directly to local qualified insured fabricators which can in turn supply their local bicycle shops. Either way - we are a steel supply company. Not a rack one. Cheers.
Good luck with that.
Jordy
RYD4LF
Refer to my above response to Dale regarding some background info mate - along with legalities. Again. I’m not here to bicker over opinions. I’ve posted factual information above after my name and product have been publicly mentioned without an ability to defend myself with no real context into the situation. Again I’ve encouraged questions and queries in my initial post. If you want to know the actual legalities. Requirements. State rulings. I’m more than open to discussion, it’s not on me to reign in the cowboys but I can supply a cost effective solution that they can take to a local qualified fabricator to assemble a completed rack for less than $1000 - it gets more bums on bikes. More money in riders pockets and realistically. If a cowboy still exists. And They have existed forever. At very least this provides an actual cost effective option to discourage attempting to butt weld home made baskets to a ladder rack…. Cheers.
Jordy
RYD4LF
Thanks mate
moorey
call me Mia
I'm also done with this. I think I've been nothing short of gushing in praise for you engineering and fabrication chops. I wouldn't hesitate to buy something from you if you were in control of, and accountable for the item. Second party or self assembly, hard nope. Many will undoubtedly be happy to.
And apologies, yes, I recall you sent me a message request on FB months ago. I didn't accept and reply, as it then allows you to call me. I can do without calls from angry randoms, I get enough of that from family and friends.
Let me get this straight though.....You don't like your publicly spruiked MTB product being discussed on a public MTB forum?
Kinda passive aggressive don't you reckon?. I'll come say gday if I get the chance.
Thanks, I appreciate the response. I also accept that you are aware of the legal responsibilities and requirements. However:
- no one is bickering, this is a mature and (mostly) respectful conversation
- you do have the ability to defend yourself, it's precisely what you're doing right now in this thread
- I agree, that it's not your responsibility to reign in the cowboys. However, your product encourages and enables the cowboys as it's made their job of bodging something up quicker and easier and likely provides them with a level of false confidence
You have a background in engineering and fabrication. Your flatpacks look awesome, well considered and well designed. I have a background in risk assessment and management. I am confident that selling your packs to the general public increases the likelihood of incompetently constructed carriers being used on the roads, with the consequences of failure being extreme.
My thoughts are you are not selling randomly cut and shaped steel, you are selling a kit. It is one thing to sell a lump of timber and another entirely to shape it like a cock and then deny liability for splinters!
Jordy
RYD4LF
apology accepted mate - what I don’t like is hearing from third parties that my name is being mentioned on public forums without an ability to defend myself. wether you can appreciate the product I’ve created or not I don’t really care - but you went out of your way to bring up myself and give your side of a conversation regarding your opinion rather than actual facts. I
FYI - the orange thing was a joke. I love my 224 which is on the shelf cracked - and actually rode with RB all weekend…
alright - I’ll play into your risk assessment theory.
So by your theory, should all the trailer component suppliers stop selling to the public?
I can buy a trailer axle tomorrow - have my mate install it in a generic old box trailer.
Hell even a stub axle for a rear wheel swing away? Those are only encouraging people to make their own. Trailers do not have yearly checks - nor a code or standard to how they were initially built.
what about super cheap? Should they stop supplying brake pads to the public.? Surely the ability to purchase direct has only encouraged people who don’t know how to work on cars to do repairs? Should they ensure if you purchase a trolley Jack it includes a set of Jack stands
What about hoists? Do you think the public shouldn’t be able to own vehicle hoists? You aren’t required to have a hoist installed by anyone.
let’s go down the line even further.
Bunnings sells electrical supplies direct to the public. What if they install it without being an electrician? Legality wise - any business requires a light bulb to be installed by an electrician, so how can bunnings justify supplying parts to unlicensed electricians?
plumbing supplies? Without being a plumber?
Can someone unlicensed buy a forklift? Buy a car? A motorbike?
Should I not operate my main business doing custom cnc cut vehicle components because you think someone won’t install it correctly? If I supply vehicle components I’m 100% encouraging people to construct their own vehicles. Legality wise most things will need engineering too - is it my responsibility to ensure someone I sold some shock mounts to 17 months ago has them correctly installed and engineered?
I can keep going down the line - but whilst I’ve innovated in one product that has IMPROVED on a design that “cowboys” have tried doing and will now always continue to do - youd wanna damn sure compare it to other fields in regards to risk assessments. Fyi - as part of the job in regards to working with Australian standards in regard to scaffolding. It includes the ticks for safety (risk assessment
It really seems you have left out the factor of public liability insurance too. Which all competent welders providing services should have - But it doesn’t matter - this isn’t up for debate. The snowball of flatpack racks has already gained momentum. My legalities are covered well and truely mate - and the fact is. I can close the doors tomorrow. Some one else will open them. The idea has already been copied.
moorey
call me Mia
I’m immune to cracks about oranges… pun intended. They’re the only bike I can’t seem to crack though. Unlike the other 3 non oranges I’ve munted in the last 4 months. Almost had to resort to bringing one to GV for the Nationals.
Would dearly have loved a new Orange this year. RB was generous in a price on a frame, but they’re still unfortunately out of my budget. In hindsight, a better option than what I ordered 6 months ago that may never come…
You can cite as much risk across other unrelated fields as you want, it doesn't change what I've said. As photos in this thread have clearly displayed, it is reasonable to assess that your product is likely to be put together by people who do not have the requisite competencies, in a way that could easily put others at risk. Comparing one risk to another, unrelated risk is not how risk assessment works, sorry.
Jordy
RYD4LF
Exactly - so every other application you don’t want to accept is similar. And just target my product. You can’t pick and choose here. But for argument sake - do you recon the current rack companies are also liable for being over length on many many vehicles? They’ve supplied products that exceed the 60% wheelbases with no warning whatsoever.
But they do not exceed the length when not loaded. Does that make responsibility on the operator of vehicle or the company? Sorry just trying to work out a baseline for how you pick and choose what you’d like to target. the way all the products mentioned get around the risk you speak of is a simple “must be assembled/operated/constructed” by competent person. Which is all that is required. Even for products that are MUCH higher risk.
I even have gone above and beyond in being able to supply a list of local insured competent fabricators to build the racks if people are not competent. Again it seems you have an opinion. Rather than actual facts to go off with legalities.
I have not once said that you should be legally liable, I've clearly noted that you seem to be across the legal issues. I've just said that I won't drive behind one of your racks because the likelihood of it being shoddily constructed is too much for me to chance the potential consequences. I am confident in my assessment of that risk given my experiences. I similarly avoid other products and facilities (and people!) that concern me, as I am sure that you do too.Exactly - so every other application you don’t want to accept is similar. And just target my product. You can’t pick and choose here. But for argument sake - do you recon the current rack companies are also liable for being over length on many many vehicles? They’ve supplied products that exceed the 60% wheelbases with no warning whatsoever.
the way all the products mentioned get around the risk you speak of is a simple “must be assembled/operated/constructed” by competent person. Which is all that is required. Even for products that are MUCH higher risk.
I even have gone above and beyond in being able to supply a list of local insured competent fabricators to build the racks if people are not competent. Again it seems you have an opinion. Rather than actual facts to go off with legalities.
The baseline of what I pick and choose to target? I think you might be over-reacting. I saw your product discussed on this website and I discussed how it made me feel. That's all that is happening here - a couple of people are having a chat about an MTB related product. We're allowed our opinions, as are you.