2015 Giant Reign owners

[waldog]

Just take my word for it - have ridden them all and been in this game for a long time.
In my experience, when it comes to spring curve linearity (which is the exact problem you've objectively recognized and need to solve), the pecking order is:

1. Coil
2. Vorsprung and Float X2 Evol (both cans have similar performance)
3. Regular Evol
4. Debonair
5. Any air shock that isn't equipped with a modern negative chamber can (All DB Air shocks included!)

Getting the current shock tuned is not going to solve your problem at all. Limit yourself to the first two options only if you want a real solution.

Hmm, your word? Thanks, but I'd love it if you could elaborate on why they're better, rather than you just say they are and we should believe it.

I'm not contending that the debonair is better or vice versa, but I'd really like to know why you think it isn't.

I'm a coil convert, love them, don't care about the very negligible weight gain as the performance is out this world. Saying that, I think the debonair is the best air shock I've ever ridden, for the reasons I stated earlier in the thread.

 

[udi]

Hmm, your word? Thanks, but I'd love it if you could elaborate on why they're better, rather than you just say they are and we should believe it.

Seen dyno testing of spring curves. Ridden all.

I also don't really have the time to convince people why my opinion is fact - take it or leave it.

 

[waldog]

Seen dyno testing of spring curves. Ridden all.

I also don't really have the time to convince people why my opinion is fact - take it or leave it.

Hmm, thank you for taking the time out of your busy schedule to at least post that response.

 

[udi]

Hmm, thank you for taking the time out of your busy schedule to at least post that response.

You're welcome.

 

[waldog]

You're welcome.

Pleasure was all mine.

 

[teK--]

Hi,
I'm currently looking at buying a 2015 reign advanced 1, I was wondering if a size medium would be a tad big. I'm 170cm (5'7") and on the Giant website I am inbetween a small and a medium.
i can't test out sizes due to my location, so any advice would be awesome.
thanks

Go medium. I'm 172 and run a 35mm stem with 780 bars it is perfect for all round use.

 

[dropotaro]

Thanks for all the input, def going to go medium with a short stem and around 740 bars. Now i just have to find one haha

 

[waldog]

Thanks for all the input, def going to go medium with a short stem and around 740 bars. Now i just have to find one haha

I just had my first pedal after going back to 740 bars on a 40mm stem. Very, very happy with it.

Much more responsive than the 760mm bars.

Keep on mind that although I'm only 2cms shorter than you, I'm shorter in the torso and longer in the legs. So that will have an influence on your setup.

 

[dropotaro]

I just had my first pedal after going back to 740 bars on a 40mm stem. Very, very happy with it.

Much more responsive than the 760mm bars.

Keep on mind that although I'm only 2cms shorter than you, I'm shorter in the torso and longer in the legs. So that will have an influence on your setup.

That's good to hear as I'm also longer in the legs and shorter in the torso. Can't wait to get one and take it for a spin. Keep hearing nothing but good things.

 

[dropotaro]

Just pulled the trigger on a medium Reign advanced 1 2015, pretty excited for it arrive now.

 

[mitchy_]

Just take my word for it - have ridden them all and been in this game for a long time.
In my experience, when it comes to spring curve linearity (which is the exact problem you've objectively recognized and need to solve), the pecking order is:

1. Coil
2. Vorsprung and Float X2 Evol (both cans have similar performance)
3. Regular Evol
4. Debonair
5. Any air shock that isn't equipped with a modern negative chamber can (All DB Air shocks included!)

Getting the current shock tuned is not going to solve your problem at all. Limit yourself to the first two options only if you want a real solution.

Seen dyno testing of spring curves. Ridden all.

I also don't really have the time to convince people why my opinion is fact - take it or leave it.

dyno tests i've seen show that the corset and EVOL cans are pretty different, EVOL being not that much different from stock.

i found the corset on my bike to be underwhelming. monarch plus provides a much better shock overall. that's my opinion though, unlike yours which is "fact". :lol:

 

[udi]

dyno tests i've seen show that the corset and EVOL cans are pretty different, EVOL being not that much different from stock.
i found the corset on my bike to be underwhelming. monarch plus provides a much better shock overall. that's my opinion though, unlike yours which is "fact". :lol:

I'm well aware of those graphs.

1. The EVOL can on the X2 is different to the regular EVOL, and the X2 EVOL is not on those graphs.
2. The Debonair is not on either of those graphs.

So you've posted two pictures, neither of which substantiate any of your claims. Get back in your hole.

 

[Zaf]

I'm well aware of those graphs.

1. The EVOL can on the X2 is different to the regular EVOL, and the X2 EVOL is not on those graphs.
2. The Debonair is not on either of those graphs.

So you've posted two pictures, neither of which substantiate any of your claims. Get back in your hole.

I my experience with the Vorsprung on my Float X with the Yeti SB66c, although the breakaway is smoother and it does move through its travel better than the stock can, it doesn't allow me to use proper sag, beyond 220psi it just sat in the same 30% sag mark and then was active from that point, extra pressure being necessary to protect against bottom out, at which point it would ramp up incredibly.

Compared to the Vivid R2C, the Vorsprung wallows and puts me in a shitty part of my travel for the bike.
Compared to the stock can, again, it might be smoother stroked, you can feel there's less stiction, but the suspension quality is worse.

 

[udi]

I my experience with the Vorsprung on my Float X with the Yeti SB66c, although the breakaway is smoother and it does move through its travel better than the stock can, it doesn't allow me to use proper sag, beyond 220psi it just sat in the same 30% sag mark and then was active from that point, extra pressure being necessary to protect against bottom out, at which point it would ramp up incredibly.

Compared to the Vivid R2C, the Vorsprung wallows and puts me in a shitty part of my travel for the bike.
Compared to the stock can, again, it might be smoother stroked, you can feel there's less stiction, but the suspension quality is worse.

These things are a function of not just the can, but the leverage ratio curve of the frame itself (which varies dramatically from frame to frame). My post was addressed purely at herbman who asked about the Reign (the bike this thread is about), a frame I have tried all of these shocks in, along with numerous coil shocks. He's been objective enough to recognize a fault which is a classic air spring curve related issue, and my response was an honest suggestion towards a genuine improvement on his particular frame - rather than throwing money at 'solutions' that won't fix the problem.

In your case I think you would have benefitted from running zero volume spacers and higher pressure, I'm sure you noted that the Corset runs a significantly higher pressure to attain the same sag. Vorsprung provide numbers for this pressure increase, and if this causes you to exceed the pressure capacity of the can then it's not for you. If you ran any less than the specified increase (compared to the same shock without the Corset, under the assumption the previous shock was set up optimally) then you didn't have it set up right.

Having seen the SB66c leverage curve, I think the Corset is a good fit for the frame, and your experience may have more to do with your individual requirements and/or comparisons to other bikes (many AM/Enduro frames AND air cans cause substantial jumps in spring rate across the first 1/4 of total travel - resulting in a perception of "support" and lack of "wallowing" which is really just a substantial nonlinearity destroying bump performance) OR a setup issue rather than actually being inferior.

Not having a go at you here, but your post to me indicates that you either didn't run enough pressure in the Corset, or you didn't get along with the increase in linearity - because a perception of less blow through in the initial part of the stroke points to your replacement shock (whatever that may be) having a LESS linear spring curve than the Corset/Fox combo it replaced. A coil shock is significantly MORE linear in its spring curve than any of the air springs discussed here (with the Corset being closer to it than average, although still imperfect), and the SB66c's leverage curve actually works very well with a coil shock - which to me reinforces the setup or perception issue. The only exception here would be if the Vivid R2C you reference is a coil, in that case it will certainly be superior in both bump absorption and support.

For whatever it's worth, I have no allegiance to any of the companies mentioned, and I run coil shocks on all my bikes.

 

[waldog]

These things are a function of not just the can, but the leverage ratio curve of the frame itself (which varies dramatically from frame to frame). My post was addressed purely at herbman who asked about the Reign (the bike this thread is about), a frame I have tried all of these shocks in, along with numerous coil shocks. He's been objective enough to recognize a fault which is a classic air spring curve related issue, and my response was an honest suggestion towards a genuine improvement on his particular frame - rather than throwing money at 'solutions' that won't fix the problem.

In your case I think you would have benefitted from running zero volume spacers and higher pressure, I'm sure you noted that the Corset runs a significantly higher pressure to attain the same sag. Vorsprung provide numbers for this pressure increase, and if this causes you to exceed the pressure capacity of the can then it's not for you. If you ran any less than the specified increase (compared to the same shock without the Corset, under the assumption the previous shock was set up optimally) then you didn't have it set up right.

Having seen the SB66c leverage curve, I think the Corset is a good fit for the frame, and your experience may have more to do with your individual requirements and/or comparisons to other bikes (many AM/Enduro frames AND air cans cause substantial jumps in spring rate across the first 1/4 of total travel - resulting in a perception of "support" and lack of "wallowing" which is really just a substantial nonlinearity destroying bump performance) OR a setup issue rather than actually being inferior.

Not having a go at you here, but your post to me indicates that you either didn't run enough pressure in the Corset, or you didn't get along with the increase in linearity - because a perception of less blow through in the initial part of the stroke points to your replacement shock (whatever that may be) having a LESS linear spring curve than the Corset/Fox combo it replaced. A coil shock is significantly MORE linear in its spring curve than any of the air springs discussed here (with the Corset being closer to it than average, although still imperfect), and the SB66c's leverage curve actually works very well with a coil shock - which to me reinforces the setup or perception issue.

For whatever it's worth, I have no allegiance to any of the companies mentioned, and I run coil shocks on all my bikes.

Super response. Very much appreciate you actually explaining the detail behind you statement.

You clearly know more than the average punter, and it's great that you've actually given some cred, at least in my eyes, to your previous statements of "facts".

I agree on the coil front. Now have one on my Reign and had one on my Dixon, and they just can't be beaten.

Do you wanna e-hug?

 

[Rhys_]

dyno tests i've seen show that the corset and EVOL cans are pretty different, EVOL being not that much different from stock.

snip

i found the corset on my bike to be underwhelming. monarch plus provides a much better shock overall. that's my opinion though, unlike yours which is "fact". :lol:

Dude. You are comparing a damper (monarch) and an air can (corset). You've made no isolation between the damper and the can. You've seemingly given no indication or thought towards the original damper's model, tune ID, settings or condition. You are also assuming the X2 has the same curve as a RP-based shock, which is frankly ridiculous seeing as even visually the cans look completely different. The X2 also has a lot more scope in terms of spacer tuning. What's even the point of posting the graphs? They don't illustrate any relevant points regarding the three main shock types in question here - coil, float X2 or monarch.

Finally, you are all entitled to your opinions, but at least have something reasonable to back up your claims if you are going to go head on with someone with clearly years and years of suspension science and testing experience.

 

[Zaf]

These things are a function of not just the can, but the leverage ratio curve of the frame itself (which varies dramatically from frame to frame). My post was addressed purely at herbman who asked about the Reign (the bike this thread is about), a frame I have tried all of these shocks in, along with numerous coil shocks. He's been objective enough to recognize a fault which is a classic air spring curve related issue, and my response was an honest suggestion towards a genuine improvement on his particular frame - rather than throwing money at 'solutions' that won't fix the problem.

In your case I think you would have benefitted from running zero volume spacers and higher pressure, I'm sure you noted that the Corset runs a significantly higher pressure to attain the same sag. Vorsprung provide numbers for this pressure increase, and if this causes you to exceed the pressure capacity of the can then it's not for you. If you ran any less than the specified increase (compared to the same shock without the Corset, under the assumption the previous shock was set up optimally) then you didn't have it set up right.

Having seen the SB66c leverage curve, I think the Corset is a good fit for the frame, and your experience may have more to do with your individual requirements and/or comparisons to other bikes (many AM/Enduro frames AND air cans cause substantial jumps in spring rate across the first 1/4 of total travel - resulting in a perception of "support" and lack of "wallowing" which is really just a substantial nonlinearity destroying bump performance) OR a setup issue rather than actually being inferior.

Not having a go at you here, but your post to me indicates that you either didn't run enough pressure in the Corset, or you didn't get along with the increase in linearity - because a perception of less blow through in the initial part of the stroke points to your replacement shock (whatever that may be) having a LESS linear spring curve than the Corset/Fox combo it replaced. A coil shock is significantly MORE linear in its spring curve than any of the air springs discussed here (with the Corset being closer to it than average, although still imperfect), and the SB66c's leverage curve actually works very well with a coil shock - which to me reinforces the setup or perception issue. The only exception here would be if the Vivid R2C you reference is a coil, in that case it will certainly be superior in both bump absorption and support.

For whatever it's worth, I have no allegiance to any of the companies mentioned, and I run coil shocks on all my bikes.

I removed all spacers from the Float X and ran the can up to 300psi with it still being unable to achieve proper sag (95kg at heaviest full loaded). It just doesn't sit high in its stroke once the Vorsprung is on shock. I spoke to the guys from Vorsprung before purchasing, I had one of the first production cans, in fact I've got a spare because the first run came with a manufacturing flaw which they replaced immediately.

It breaks through travel too easily. Which could probably rectified with a damping change to match it, but as it stood, it sat too low into its travel (for this frame, it was too close to the switch which completely hurt pedalling performance), which wasn't rectified with increased spring pressure beyond 220psi, and after that it was just adding pressure to reduce bottom out.

Its good, and it's smoother than the stock can through small bumps (again, that zero breakaway is true to advertising), but beyond anything else, the smoothness of the action in the shock made it feel under damped.

Having gone to a Vivid R2C really demonstrated the difference, but it didn't mesh with my Yeti as well as I'd have liked in hindsight to what a well tuned shock feels.

Not everyone's experience is going to be the same, two other guys I know with an Enduro and a Camber have both tried the Vorsprung cans for their bikes and not had great experiences with them, and those are very different leverage rates to the Yeti.

 

[udi]

I removed all spacers from the Float X and ran the can up to 300psi with it still being unable to achieve proper sag (95kg at heaviest full loaded).

Yeah but that doesn't actually answer the question of whether you had the correct pressure in it or not, I'm going to hazard a guess that you didn't (220 sounds too low for your weight, but I'm not intimately familiar with the pressure for your weight or frame). The Corset is rated to higher than 300psi FYI. If you didn't run the correct pressure then it makes your comparison somewhat void. An air can spring curve that is less linear than the Corset WILL feel more supported at a lower pressure, but comparisons should not be drawn with equivalent pressure - they should be made with equivalent average spring rate.

Also for whatever it's worth, the improvement in smoothness / perceived reduction in stiction isn't actually a reduction in stiction, but a drastic improvement in the linearity of the spring curve. The Corset uses the same seals as the stock Fox cans so static friction doesn't really change.

Anyway fair enough if you couldn't find a happy medium, like I said I'm not out to convince anyone to buy any particular air spring, because they are all mathematically inferior to a linear coil spring anyway - and since 99% of frames don't adequately compensate for the huge nonlinearities in even the most optimal air can designs (in fact, many like the SB66 graphed here don't even come close) - a coil shock will almost always provide peak performance.

I should reinstate that my post was directed purely at the question asked by herbman in relation to issues experienced with the Monarch on the Reign frame.

 

[Zaf]

I ran 190psi in stock can of my Float X for 25%. I'd get 30% sag once the Vorsprung got to 220psi, no amount of pressure above this would reduce where it sat, just where and how the shock bottomed out. In my experience, on my bike, it felt under damped, and didn't mesh with how the bike pedalled.
My Vivid R2C uses a 500-550lbs spring on it (I have a two at the moment that I switch), I realise that Vorsprung have said they can handle higher pressures, but given that they say it'll be approx a +30% pressure to achieve same sag as stock, and shock pumps top out at 300psi (I've yet to find one that goes beyond the range that isn't prohibitively expensive, might very well be an error in my ability to search though).

I did have the same issue (well, similar) with sag on my Monarch+, but NSD fixed that and I'd be tempted to try the same fix on the Vorsprung (volume reducers in the negative air can), but now that the Vivid is at a tune I'm happy with, it's a second best solution to a problem that no longer exists.

 

[udi]

My Vivid R2C uses a 500-550lbs spring on it (I have a two at the moment that I switch)

Hang on, I thought you were comparing the Vorsprung to an alternative air can. Why even reply if you're comparing it to a coil? You're only backing up my claims.

Of course the coil is superior, I've stated this numerous times here, not least of all in this very clear ordered list:

1. Coil
2. Vorsprung and Float X2 Evol (both cans have similar performance)
3. Regular Evol
4. Debonair
5. Any air shock that isn't equipped with a modern negative chamber can (All DB Air shocks included!)

So, as I've already stated, the Corset (roughly alongside the Float X2) is a best-in-class solution if you need/want to run an air shock. If you're happy to run a coil, then yes, that is superior (in almost every frame for reasons I described in my previous post). Of course you had the same issue on a Monarch+, "fixing that" would be nothing but a blanket misconception at best (volume reducers in the negative side of the can is not a kosher solution, it's a band-aid that actually *increases* initial stroke digression, so a feeling of "more support" at the suboptimal cost of bump absorption), but let's not even discuss this further since you've jumped to the best solution now anyway.

If there's still confusion though - let me stress here again that you'd need the same *average* spring rate on the Corset as the Monarch+ *and* the 550lb spring-equipped Vivid coil for a fair comparison, and I'm confident that the lack of that is what may have made it seem like the Corset was not superior to the Monarch+. Both solutions are substantially inferior to a coil, particularly in the SB66, so you're obviously correct in your deductions that this last upgrade is indeed an upgrade.