Really? :
Agree with that, no doubt.
The election thread - Two middle-late aged white men trying to be blokey and convincing..., same old shit, FFS.
- Thread starter johnny
- Start date
FR Drew
Not a custom title.
What is an enemy when you haven't actually declared war on anyone in particular and a going into a country with an elected government to install your own preferred group, where the person in question has been arrested based upon accusations made by groups who will profit financially from handing over anyone on any heresay reports that they choose to pass on. Where the evidence is suspect, either due to the motivations of those supplying it, or where it has been obtained through torture...
Yes, he trained with the Taliban, yes he believed in the jihad, yes he guarded a tank once...
That does not make him a terrorist, and it certainly doesn't justify torture and imprisonment without charge for 7 years in a system with none of the checks and balances that are expected in any judicial system, or even for prisoners of war. Or where the accepted standards for permissible evidence are so flagrantly ignored.
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Pastavore
Eats Squid
And Moorey's alter-ego deftly combines our 2 current issues in the politics thread:
http://thenewdaily.com.au/news/2015/02/20/bring-back-death-penalty-says-lambie/
http://thenewdaily.com.au/news/2015/02/20/bring-back-death-penalty-says-lambie/
Jihad is not a single monolithic concept that means the same from one person to another either. There are also levels of jihad, etc. etc.
The complexity in the issue of D. Hicks is enormous and I would suggest that none of us here have the full facts nor the appropriate legal backgrounds to make credible judgements. I do find it interesting though that Dan Mori did have all that information and education and he defended him to the point that it basically ended his own career.
The complexity in the issue of D. Hicks is enormous and I would suggest that none of us here have the full facts nor the appropriate legal backgrounds to make credible judgements. I do find it interesting though that Dan Mori did have all that information and education and he defended him to the point that it basically ended his own career.
pharmaboy
Eats Squid
Paragraph 1 - no response - I read conspiracy and know that no sense can come from any discussion .
The rest ; it does however make him part of a terrorist organisation and an enemy of our state - my realising that Hicks is an enemy of Australia does not mean I condone Guantanamo and it's methods. Someone somewhere decided that in order to fight a dirty war with an enemy with no morals at all, that you had to get a bit down and dirty with them - I don't subscribe to that view though I understand where it came from
scblack
Leucocholic
You're probably right, I don't care about his case enough to follow intracacies. Many many guilty people have been found not guilty of umpteen types of crime due to the law not applying specifically to their actions. All a court does is strictly apply the law as it stands and specifics of a case can mean that a person who is to all intents and purposes (Should I say intensive purposes?) guilty of the crime is found not guilty due to a technicality.
As you say Hicks was guilty but there was no specific law to prosecute him.
pharmaboy
Eats Squid
Could it be that Mori defended the law in how he was taught? I don't think he is alone in thinking that the ends don't justify the means.
Id also note that there are plenty of far worse criminals who get excellent legal counsel who genuinely believe their client is innocent .
There is beyond all doubt,and there is balance of probabilities
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GeoffRidesBikes
Likes Dirt
I don't see how regarding something as clearly unattainable and not practicable or in the countries best interests like i did is considered to be an actual "fantasy vision" but we're now down to splitting hairs and it's a debate of no virtue.
Back to the actual issue, it's probably time for the press to move on, for a couple of reasons. Widodo, like pretty much all Indonesian government officials in the history of ever, is crazy stubborn and clearly not going to give an inch. The 2 are as good as dead and nothing Australia can do will change that. He's set a mandate for the practice so he won't (can't?) back down now.
The more we perpetuate the mercy cries, the more the Abbott government has to simply be seen to be doing something which results in more ridiculous gaffes like the quip about Tsunami aid. He's hopeless and instead of pushing him to have a go, we should be encouraging him to shut the hell up and sit in the corner until the next election when he can retire. That kind of shit doesn't help Aus/Indo relations. Like i said already, I personally feel that they can go and get fucked with their capital punishment but that's quite detrimental to how we operate so I too, if given the podium on television and directly to Widodo, should probably not blackmail him about foreign aid.
We've lost the battle and the more our glorious leaders dig a hole, the more the families have to be dragged through the public sphere and suffer loudly. That's not really fair on them. I realize they are quite vocal as well (and i take a bit of umbrage with that too) however they are probably entitled to a bit of chest beating about it, despite it being a lost cause - I can't think of anything worse than sitting at home knowing your son will be shot soon.
Actually Taliban were not a terror org, they were aiding a terror org by not handing OBL over. It is questionable as to whether they knew where OBL was and/or had the ability to take him in to custody.
Secondly, the US had working relations with the Taliban and Bush himself hosted them at his personal ranch when Unocal was attempting to put a pipeline across Afghanistan.
As I was saying, it's a very complex issue with a lot of elements still unclear. I'm not willing to make a call either way on it and I caution against most other people doing so as well.
GeoffRidesBikes
Likes Dirt
Probably a wise move.
The Hicks case, and pretty much anything to do with most of the operations in the region in the last couple of decades, are shrouded in so much secrecy and conspiracy that it would be almost impossible for anyone outside of some fairly high echelons to have a good grip on what's going on or gone on in the past.
pharmaboy
Eats Squid
Of course it's complex Johnny. But so is politics, and we have opinions on that - many mix up opinions and fact as a matter of course.
If there is one area of govt where we have to have an element of acceptance and faith, it's the military and intelligence, because by it's very nature it cannot be an open book to the public. I expect those organisations to protect my lifestyle within their own rules, and as such I'm a bit reticent to criticise them easily.
Hicks was on the other side of conflict with Australia and it's allies - i think that's accepted
If there is one area of govt where we have to have an element of acceptance and faith, it's the military and intelligence, because by it's very nature it cannot be an open book to the public. I expect those organisations to protect my lifestyle within their own rules, and as such I'm a bit reticent to criticise them easily.
Hicks was on the other side of conflict with Australia and it's allies - i think that's accepted
Pastavore
Eats Squid
I strongly disagree Pharma. Have a look at Iraq War 2 (The Sequel). Military and intelligence were telling us we needed to invade due t imminent risks of WMDs. We were correct to be sceptical and untrusting in that matter, and history quickly provided the truth.
I don't think it is at all as clear as "Hicks was on the other side of the conflict". We should be judged on our actions, and I don't think Hicks was involved in any military engagement with any Australian troops or it's allies.
No, I don't agree with his ideals, No, I don't think he is a misunderstood martyr. But it is not an us vs them scenario.
Yes but the nature of the complexity is exceedingly different here for a large number of reasons.
And being "on the other side" is about as simple as it could be made and nothing really can be gained by having that opinion. Did Hicks have all the info as to what was going on, what was he doing when he was caught, was he linked to AQ in terms of their actions agains the West, Was he a Tban foot soldier that had nothing at all to do with international operations, should Tban foot soldiers be individually charged with lending support to proscribed organisations because of what other people in that organisation had done regardless on the individual's knowledge to hold and act on that information........, The list of questions that come from that statement is monumental and I again suggest that we do not have that information nor do we know what is unknown given the level of secrecy relevant to this situation.
Not as an attack on you Pharma but you seem to be some one who likes to have firm and clear opinions and doesn't seem to care for nuance and uncertainty - you are a very certain kind of person. Again, not a criticism in any way. However I do feel that in dealing with issues such as this uncertainty is most often the common and dominant factor.
pink poodle
気が狂っている男
Well I'm a few pages behind. Australia could high moral ground all we like, but we are such an insignificant grain of sand globally.
pink poodle
気が狂っている男
Well I'm a few pages behind. Australia could high moral ground all we like, but we are such an insignificant grain of sand globally.
Underline and italics...some serious emphasis! But no caps?
That pic needs more cock.
The Taliban - Bush love was well covered by Mike Moore in his dangerous left wing conspiracy theory filmsand books. As was the Bush - Bin Laden love.
pharmaboy
Eats Squid
What's the alternative though pasta?
I would think a democratic decision to go to war as a somewhat unworkable concept , as is widely available intelligence - I think the matter of faith as purely a pragmatic one - dog knows, they ve let us down in the example you cite, but at least we have enough openness to have figured that out.
Johnny, this forum is as much a debate platform as a gentlemanly discussion. I assume a level of intelligence here that can delineate between a forward opinion and a fact.
However what you say has significant element of truth, I have always found that the more one knows about any subject the less one realizes they know - though this isn't a universal trait , but it's common enough. By it's nature we are skimming over topics that are in the news.
"Show me a man who thinks he knows everything about something, and I give you a fool"
Pharmaboy musings February 2015
:d. :d
I would think a democratic decision to go to war as a somewhat unworkable concept , as is widely available intelligence - I think the matter of faith as purely a pragmatic one - dog knows, they ve let us down in the example you cite, but at least we have enough openness to have figured that out.
Johnny, this forum is as much a debate platform as a gentlemanly discussion. I assume a level of intelligence here that can delineate between a forward opinion and a fact.
However what you say has significant element of truth, I have always found that the more one knows about any subject the less one realizes they know - though this isn't a universal trait , but it's common enough. By it's nature we are skimming over topics that are in the news.
"Show me a man who thinks he knows everything about something, and I give you a fool"
Pharmaboy musings February 2015
:d. :d
Pastavore
Eats Squid
Yeah, I know what you mean, I understand that some intelligence *has* to be kept secret. I suppose my point is that being cynical, questioning things, and holding the appropriate people accountable when they lie or misuse intelligence is pretty important. Probably more important than in any other area of government as there are usually lots of lives at stake.
pink poodle
気が狂っている男
There was also a lot of doubt about that intelligence's accuracy.
One angle on the issue.
http://www.theage.com.au/comment/de...action-as-we-rush-to-war-20141028-11csb2.html
http://www.theage.com.au/comment/de...action-as-we-rush-to-war-20141028-11csb2.html
DJninja
Likes Bikes and Dirt
There is always dissonance between the actual specific reasons, the information that leads to any decision and the information the public receives to placate the average citizen. Absolute truth as a virtue is absolutely unattainable, as far as I can tell. Especially so for those speaking to millions.
As an interesting aside, George Galloway, British parliamentarian, is trying to put Tony Blair in jail for putting British troops in Iraq. He has some interesting perspectives that are erosive to some western interests, and hence has a lot of enemies. Check him out on Youtube.