the objectification/feminism/equal rights split
- Thread starter Techno Destructo
- Start date
As I said, it's not a legaslative or institutional (meaning standardised practice of organisations) issue, hence no beaurocratical interference. By culture I mean societies values. It will take a reorganisation of how we think/act, and this will only come through generational change. The way we teach in schools is a small part only, these things include: encouraging boys in non-traditioal male careers such as nursing, secretarial, hospitality services, aged care, school teaching etc. Also encouraging girls towards engineering, IT, politics, science etc. The most change will come from how parents bring their children up. This change is already happening in the other areas that I have mentioned and simply having discussions like this is a major part of the process. Education isn't confined to class romms!S. said:
I'm proud to see that people from what would otherwise be viewed as a "hardcore sick dude gnarly smash it up" type community, such as farkin, can have so many people with such a wide range of thoughts on a pressing social matter. Same goes for politics. I was told by a security guard last night that we were "acting like children" doing jumps on push bikes. Apparently a security liscence qualifies you to set the standard for what is appropriate behaviour for your age :roll: I do not think that the MTB community is as ignorant and "radical dude" as people like to make us out. People like Malfunctioning Eddie may have conflicting views than a lot of us here, but I do believe that he puts more thought into these issues than many of the main stream, channel ten watching, telegraph reading, austereo listenning (50yr old security guards) types do. I for one respect that if not his opinions on some issues.
*Edit, Bit random to bring up Eddie on this issue, I just wanted to say that many people on this site, whatever their views have a brain and seem to be using it moreso than many in the wider community. This thread, with it's conflicting opinions and lack of infantile abuse is testimony to this and a credit to us.
FARKIN CREW FOR PM 8) :lol:
Malfuctioning Eddie
Likes Dirt
As per usual I have to add my 2 cents to this.....
My personal belief is that, in advertising, any goes. Aslong as you abide by censorship laws then anything should be allowed. Let's face up to facts; IMAGE is EVERYTHING. If you want to push your product then you have to think about your key consumer group. In this case it's young to middle aged men (12-35), basically any male in that age group, generally, is going to love seeing pictures of sexy women, especially posing with bike products. It's association "wow she is rubbing those forks, she must ride..WOW that's sexy" something along those lines. Your consumer likes girls, he likes bikes, so you give him just that. As people have said already SEX SELLS. Their ad campaign could ahve been directed a number of ways, but they don't want to cut their market up. If they had a picture of a guy doing a huge drop with a big highlight on some forks, or whatever, I'm sure plenty of people would like it, and want the forks. BUT straight away I would see it and think "hucker forks, I don't want that...I need a race fork". The whole hucker/freerider thing is huge and they could sell a lot of forks if they directed their marketing that direction, but then they risk losing respect as a race product, likewise if they just show pictures of people racing on the fork, all the huckers will think "RaCinG iz SO B0r1ng, I huck t0 fl4t, 1 n33d huxxer forks yo" or something like that. As I said association, they will see the image and get the wrong idea. Using a generic babe posing with the fork is great, you could have the crappiest forks and pose them with hot chicks everywhere and they would probably sell because everyones just loves the add's (not quite, but in theory anyway).
Anyway, I couldn't give a rats ass about feminists or any of that (suprise suprise), I personally think the whole sexism thing is a joke. This thread isn't about that really so anyway.......that's my POV.
Edit: I realise the topic is a bit past what I wrote, but I felt the need to post anyway.
My personal belief is that, in advertising, any goes. Aslong as you abide by censorship laws then anything should be allowed. Let's face up to facts; IMAGE is EVERYTHING. If you want to push your product then you have to think about your key consumer group. In this case it's young to middle aged men (12-35), basically any male in that age group, generally, is going to love seeing pictures of sexy women, especially posing with bike products. It's association "wow she is rubbing those forks, she must ride..WOW that's sexy" something along those lines. Your consumer likes girls, he likes bikes, so you give him just that. As people have said already SEX SELLS. Their ad campaign could ahve been directed a number of ways, but they don't want to cut their market up. If they had a picture of a guy doing a huge drop with a big highlight on some forks, or whatever, I'm sure plenty of people would like it, and want the forks. BUT straight away I would see it and think "hucker forks, I don't want that...I need a race fork". The whole hucker/freerider thing is huge and they could sell a lot of forks if they directed their marketing that direction, but then they risk losing respect as a race product, likewise if they just show pictures of people racing on the fork, all the huckers will think "RaCinG iz SO B0r1ng, I huck t0 fl4t, 1 n33d huxxer forks yo" or something like that. As I said association, they will see the image and get the wrong idea. Using a generic babe posing with the fork is great, you could have the crappiest forks and pose them with hot chicks everywhere and they would probably sell because everyones just loves the add's (not quite, but in theory anyway).
Anyway, I couldn't give a rats ass about feminists or any of that (suprise suprise), I personally think the whole sexism thing is a joke. This thread isn't about that really so anyway.......that's my POV.
Edit: I realise the topic is a bit past what I wrote, but I felt the need to post anyway.
Damn, you took even longer than me to get into this one! :shock:Malfuctioning Eddie said:
I agree with how you state the dynamics of advertising, and won't get into the whole objectification thing as it's pretty much been covered. What I would like to point out is, as you've said, target markets and interest are the core of advertising. Sex immediately spikes interest and then infers satisfaction of two urges, riding and fucking. My problem is that the two aren't really related (I tend to squash my balls on the seat quite regularly, that's as close as I get to combining them :lol: ). So when an add for anything incorporates sex, I think to myself "either that product doesn't sell itself, or what are they drawing my attention away from". Same goes for catchy jingles. Doesn't meen I don't enjoy the pics on a physical level, I just think it's a bit superficial: "these forks are really good, so check out this sexy chick". It appeals to our most basic drive, that doesn't take much thought or skill, so it kind of demeans the product and/or producers to me.
Maybe photos of hucking AND racing would fix the problem (sarcasm)
BTW, some one tell the bloody girl in the Marzzochi add to have a bloody feed, she's so bloody skinny it makes her head look too bloody big :shock:
*edit for more bloody's: bloody bloody bloody!
gumbyhead
Likes Dirt
feminism over argued debate
I know it's a bit dated, but i couldn't resist
Best topic ever...
Drumroll..............
A womens place is in the kitchen and the bedroom.
There said it.
The only reason i ride is for posters of half naked manish looking silicon injected girls.....
Whoever said niki gudex is whoring herself for money, you're obviuosly some gay art student that has stupid ideals and probably not got the confidence to talk to a girl as attractive as niki.
It is kinda easier to just look up porn on the internet than look at posters anyway., Hands up who's got another browser window open right now with teen sluts r us. (Hands go in the air, I know I sure do!)
My girlfriend rides, happens to be inteligent and attractive (i know you don't believe me) and she doesn't have any problems with the ads, why should she? (When shes not in the kitchen making me dinner.)
Oh yeah, i like boobs....big ones too.....
I know it's a bit dated, but i couldn't resist
Best topic ever...
Drumroll..............
A womens place is in the kitchen and the bedroom.
There said it.
The only reason i ride is for posters of half naked manish looking silicon injected girls.....
Whoever said niki gudex is whoring herself for money, you're obviuosly some gay art student that has stupid ideals and probably not got the confidence to talk to a girl as attractive as niki.
It is kinda easier to just look up porn on the internet than look at posters anyway., Hands up who's got another browser window open right now with teen sluts r us. (Hands go in the air, I know I sure do!)
My girlfriend rides, happens to be inteligent and attractive (i know you don't believe me) and she doesn't have any problems with the ads, why should she? (When shes not in the kitchen making me dinner.)
Oh yeah, i like boobs....big ones too.....
LTR
Annoys the hell out of Grip!
Personally, I couldnt give a stuff if a guy or a chick is advertised in that way. It's just a simple marketing stratagy, that catches the eye's of some people. If it works, it works. Companies are making their money out of it. What i don't get is why girls get so worked up because they have seen a girl that is hotter(?) than them. How should it affect their lives and the way they live? Surely if their boyfriends hooked up with one of the models, it would be a different story.
So anyway, why are the Girls complaining and not the Guys about advertising in general? If it was a serious matter, id care.
So anyway, why are the Girls complaining and not the Guys about advertising in general? If it was a serious matter, id care.
Probably (says the black pot)
But body image is a big thing, not just in females, but we're seeing alot of males with image-related issues. How many guys now workout, are health/image concious, do "girly" things like grooming. And how long until the males of the Western world face the same image-related disorders that females have gone through for a long time?
Objectification of humans in media is one major reason for this. I don't think it's right that people are expected to worship the "ideal" human as portrayed by media, hence my views on this.
[/opinion]
(says the black pot)But body image is a big thing, not just in females, but we're seeing alot of males with image-related issues. How many guys now workout, are health/image concious, do "girly" things like grooming. And how long until the males of the Western world face the same image-related disorders that females have gone through for a long time?
Objectification of humans in media is one major reason for this. I don't think it's right that people are expected to worship the "ideal" human as portrayed by media, hence my views on this.
[/opinion]
oh, man, i can't believe all this came up while i was away.
luckily someone else grave dug this, so i can now legitamately make a comment.
a while ago (about 9 months or more) we had a thread here about trying to get more women to ride. among other issues, we found a fairly solid reason why it is so difficult to get a lot of women interested in MTB.
and the major reason was.......
have you looked at some of the guys who ride?
quite a few of us have a tendency to turn into a knuckle dragging, "huh huh, titties", testosterone driven pack of retards when we meet women on the trail.
for a cpl of years i helped run a saterday morning ride at gap creek. we would get between 6 and 30 guys turn up.
guys would regularly bring their girlfreinds along, then rush off with their mates to show the female of the species exactly how moronic and hormone driven he could be.
it was pretty much left to me to shoo off the drooling remnants of the males, and try and convince the women that there was hope for the species.
those of you who met Em or zooke would have been told the same thing, but possibly a little more bluntly.
i've even seen cases (and Em and Zooke will back this one up) when we would all be riding a trail somewhere and when either of the girls said hi to others riders there was stunned silence, followed by a good long look at her tits.
now before anyone yells at me for being off topic, let me say that the reason for me writing all of the above was in answer to every person on this thread who said "yeah so, i don't have a problem with the ads".
every single time we do something stupid like some of the comments here, we reduce the chance of getting women into the sport.
every time we decide that it's acceptable behavior to address all our comments to a female riders chest, thats one more reason for them not to bother.
road riding is becoming increasingly popular for women, and one reason for that is that there tends to be less chest thumping "look what i can do" stupidity. face it, half the guys you meet out at DH track are exactly the kind of mid to late teen, big man idiot that helps to increase the female gay population of the planet.
now i'm sure i'm going to be flamed or abused for all i have said, but before you do, remember that for the last 8 years i've spent a large percentage of my time trying to get women to join in the sport, and the comments made today are made because of the things the women have said to me, and i have seen for myself. so think before juping up and screaming " i don't do that", because chances are you probably do do it, at least a little.
luckily someone else grave dug this, so i can now legitamately make a comment.
a while ago (about 9 months or more) we had a thread here about trying to get more women to ride. among other issues, we found a fairly solid reason why it is so difficult to get a lot of women interested in MTB.
and the major reason was.......
have you looked at some of the guys who ride?
quite a few of us have a tendency to turn into a knuckle dragging, "huh huh, titties", testosterone driven pack of retards when we meet women on the trail.
for a cpl of years i helped run a saterday morning ride at gap creek. we would get between 6 and 30 guys turn up.
guys would regularly bring their girlfreinds along, then rush off with their mates to show the female of the species exactly how moronic and hormone driven he could be.
it was pretty much left to me to shoo off the drooling remnants of the males, and try and convince the women that there was hope for the species.
those of you who met Em or zooke would have been told the same thing, but possibly a little more bluntly.
i've even seen cases (and Em and Zooke will back this one up) when we would all be riding a trail somewhere and when either of the girls said hi to others riders there was stunned silence, followed by a good long look at her tits.
now before anyone yells at me for being off topic, let me say that the reason for me writing all of the above was in answer to every person on this thread who said "yeah so, i don't have a problem with the ads".
every single time we do something stupid like some of the comments here, we reduce the chance of getting women into the sport.
every time we decide that it's acceptable behavior to address all our comments to a female riders chest, thats one more reason for them not to bother.
road riding is becoming increasingly popular for women, and one reason for that is that there tends to be less chest thumping "look what i can do" stupidity. face it, half the guys you meet out at DH track are exactly the kind of mid to late teen, big man idiot that helps to increase the female gay population of the planet.
now i'm sure i'm going to be flamed or abused for all i have said, but before you do, remember that for the last 8 years i've spent a large percentage of my time trying to get women to join in the sport, and the comments made today are made because of the things the women have said to me, and i have seen for myself. so think before juping up and screaming " i don't do that", because chances are you probably do do it, at least a little.
whoa, I love it when I do one of my farkin loiters and find a gender debate!! I kind of find myself being some unofficial spokesperson for the girl issue, for an issue that ought not to exist really.
My 2 cents on Marzocchi, Orange Double D's, and Flow mag - they are really quite unsophisticated. Men like to indulge in the hedonistic desire or a pair of big (usually silicon) tits and an expensive object of desire available at their lbs. Getting all Andrea Dworkin about sex in advertising is really boring. But I do wonder about Marzoc using Jenna Jamieson. The message some of the mtbing consumers might get is that Marzocchi forx suck like Jenna! hohoho. I just know that they are not trying to sell shit to me. It would be inspiring if these companies used pro female riders, I know that so-called sexist advertising is off-putting to a lot of female riders. But personally, I laugh at it. I joke that embrace slap on stickers because they are so sexist they are feminist.
A perspective a lot of men probably haven't thought of of what its like to be a woman that is attractive. They get so much greif from both sexes. The girls hate you because the boys give you attention but all the attention from the boys is superficial. Being the Marzocchi girl would be quite a lonely existance.
I in no means support the yobbo culture that goes along with the masturbatory images supplied by Marzocchi, Flow et all. Theres nothing more degrading (well perhaps there is) than some bloke yelling out "Sit on my face baby!" when your riding along, minding your own business.
I'd like to finally point out I grew up in a sporting era slightly different to the one of today. In the 80's, which really wasn't that long ago, NO WAY I could have shown up at a BMX track, or anything male-orientated without having the complete crap beaten out of me! But now theres heaps of things floating around to encourage girls to start riding, skating, surfing etc such as half decent looking apparel and shows on television like Hard Core Candy.
My 2 cents on Marzocchi, Orange Double D's, and Flow mag - they are really quite unsophisticated. Men like to indulge in the hedonistic desire or a pair of big (usually silicon) tits and an expensive object of desire available at their lbs. Getting all Andrea Dworkin about sex in advertising is really boring. But I do wonder about Marzoc using Jenna Jamieson. The message some of the mtbing consumers might get is that Marzocchi forx suck like Jenna! hohoho. I just know that they are not trying to sell shit to me. It would be inspiring if these companies used pro female riders, I know that so-called sexist advertising is off-putting to a lot of female riders. But personally, I laugh at it. I joke that embrace slap on stickers because they are so sexist they are feminist.
A perspective a lot of men probably haven't thought of of what its like to be a woman that is attractive. They get so much greif from both sexes. The girls hate you because the boys give you attention but all the attention from the boys is superficial. Being the Marzocchi girl would be quite a lonely existance.
I in no means support the yobbo culture that goes along with the masturbatory images supplied by Marzocchi, Flow et all. Theres nothing more degrading (well perhaps there is) than some bloke yelling out "Sit on my face baby!" when your riding along, minding your own business.
I'd like to finally point out I grew up in a sporting era slightly different to the one of today. In the 80's, which really wasn't that long ago, NO WAY I could have shown up at a BMX track, or anything male-orientated without having the complete crap beaten out of me! But now theres heaps of things floating around to encourage girls to start riding, skating, surfing etc such as half decent looking apparel and shows on television like Hard Core Candy.