random question: insurance/liabity/land access.

[trust in gravity]

QUESTION: when a club organised event is held on privately owned land.
the (insert)club has full insurance that covers all aspects of said event.(mtba?)
the land owner,who also runs events of public interactory nature so graciously(hyperthetically) has consented to the use of thier land by (insert) club.for the use of that clubs event.
the vendor.obviously, has insurance but.do they have insurance enough for out side organisations to run potentially hazardous events on thier land that are not the usual type of activity that they cater for.
do they. need to up thier own insurance in order to cover themselves. thus, causing them to pull out of any proposed scheduling of an organised event due to the incured cost of an event which is out side of thier usual curriculim.
or, does the (insert) club meet the extra costs burdened on the vendor for the privilage of running an event at that particular site?
in short how does this all work?

 

[nlc8)]

QUESTION: when a club organised event is held on privately owned land......

I've just asked our DH VP to answer this one for you because he runs events on private land often.....

 

[trust in gravity]

thanks . was begining to think i'd posted in the forgotten forum!

 

[schacksta]

thanks . was begining to think i'd posted in the forgotten forum!

Hmmmm, a good meaty one... I like it.

We run events at SOPA. An interesting one, because it's genrally open to the public at any other time, except when we run a (potentislly dangerous) event there. During these times, our contract with SOPA requires that we have liability insurance that covers them (SOPA), and any person associated with the activity. They have specifically asked that they be "written into" our insurance documentation - which MTBA obligingly did - cudoz to them.

I'm wondering (out loud) whether or not the same could apply for 'private' land, and if MTBA could specifically write private landholders into insurance contracts for individual events, or even ongoing use.

schacksta
president
www.wsmtb.com

 

[wsmtbdhvp]

You have not posted in a forgotten forum, just this requires a very long winded response on how to sue MTBA, Bush lawers, please save us.

2007 will see CA, BMXA and MTBA all have the same insurance. So when cycling uses a site be it Olympic Park (NSW Government Authority), the roads used by The Tour Down Under (South Australian Government and Victorian Government), a BMX track (Local Government) or Dargle (private land owner) they are covered for public liability during the time of the event by the Sports Cover Policy.

The rider cover is much less then the public liability, so the main danger (of being sued) is from lawers that will represent most probably a rider that was injured during the event and wants more than the policy will or may not supply. As usual someone has to have been at fault so the lawer looks at some way to prove that the riders injuries are the result of someones fault, not the riders for riding in this "potentially hazardous events".

This is why you generally sign 2 wavers and we put mountain bike riding is dangerous on the top. The club is generally responsible for construction on the track so a liability exists there, this is why most councils get nervous about local track building, who is responsible if some one gets injured on their land without insurance? The council or better still you the rate payer.

This is also why track builders like Glen and Brett have professional insurance in case the injury occurrs because of track building. SOPA is possibly the best example of this, the origional track plan was far more difficult to ride than what is there today, but SOPA was worried about the child on traning wheels or the guy on a road bike and I have seen both on the track, without bloody helmets.

But back to your private land owner? no! not "all" aspects of an event are covered by insurance. This is a legal answer.
Who is this vendor? If this is an private land owner, do you mean a private general public visiting park like Dargle or some one with a few acres who runs an event for the club? If its Dargle or Pacific Park then they are motorcyle and water ski parks (motors, death you know).
If it's the few acres no insurance but the MTBA's.

The only spot I know of the problem you talk of is Sugarloaf where a land owner is insisting on a private insurance policy being taken out in order for an event to cross the land. This policy will cost $0,000's and has stopped Sugarloaf being used, as the club cannot afford the policy and could not cover the cost in a years recovery.

A short reply, if you want better a long conversation with Tony Scott is suggested, start on e-mail and if it gets complicated enough Tony will call.

 

[trust in gravity]

thankyou. will need to read these responses several times and ponder a little before continueing with my train of thought. will most likly head out to dargle on sunday to get into steves ear. stay tuned, and thanks again.

 

[demo man]

Essentially, at an MTBA sanchoned event, MTBA insurance covers all the major risks. Enough so that every MTB race in Aus is run through them.

If you are allowing a MTB club that is affiliated with MTBA to run an event on your property, as long as it is clear that it is their event and they bare the liability, then the club, through MTBA, will have the insurance to cover it. That is my understanding.

I've run MTB races on private land, and have helped run them of govt. land. In both cases the exact same principal was used - the club is responsible for the race, checking that the course is safe, and all other liabilities.
Your yearly membership or MTBA day license is what pays for that insuarnce, by the way.


Outside of events MTBA does not cover anything.

 

[trust in gravity]

RANDOM QUESTION#2: use of public roads during an mtba event.

random question number two.
Q: when an organised event takes place on private land but access and exit points are via public roads,car parks etc .
is there any reason or onus on race organisers to comumicate with local council,police,rangers etc in advane of scheduled event.
(hypothetical: dh racers exit at end of course out onto public road. they then have to ride a short distance up hill(to control speed and enthusiastic youth.)to shuttle pickup point. which in turn drives up road back to drop point. they, in theory would be traveling single file.to pick up point. road is lane each way ( double lines) and can at times be quite busy. roadies (push bike variety)reguarly travel in bunches up an down this piece of road.they don't comunicate with any department of thier intentions. dh racers in full atire are the same as roadies in principle . both are push bike riders on public roads. hence Q#2.?

A:

 

[trust in gravity]

...............................................anybody?

 

[sammydog]

random question number two.
Q: when an organised event takes place on private land but access and exit points are via public roads,car parks etc .
is there any reason or onus on race organisers to comumicate with local council,police,rangers etc in advane of scheduled event.
(hypothetical: dh racers exit at end of course out onto public road. they then have to ride a short distance up hill(to control speed and enthusiastic youth.)to shuttle pickup point. which in turn drives up road back to drop point. they, in theory would be traveling single file.to pick up point. road is lane each way ( double lines) and can at times be quite busy. roadies (push bike variety)reguarly travel in bunches up an down this piece of road.they don't comunicate with any department of thier intentions. dh racers in full atire are the same as roadies in principle . both are push bike riders on public roads. hence Q#2.?

A:

I'll put my day job hat on for this one, not my club hat.

That is an answer for the local Council, what you will find is that strictly speaking any event "should" have consent of Council as it is a land use under the provisions of the Environmental Planning and Assessment Act 1979.

Generally you will be seaking approval for the "Temporary Use of land" In the case of where I work, that approval would allow you to operate for 28 days a year maximum. Generally we have Rodeo's, Circus's, concerts and the like apply for this.

Things like access, saftey plans, security, toilet and effluent disposal, environmental concenrs are the big issue there.

Back to the club hat.

We have never bothered to seek this sort of approval, and as long as the event isn't pissing off neighbors you shouldn't run into any issues with the Councill.

The only spot I know of the problem you talk of is Sugarloaf where a land owner is insisting on a private insurance policy being taken out in order for an event to cross the land. This policy will cost $0,000's and has stopped Sugarloaf being used, as the club cannot afford the policy and could not cover the cost in a years recovery.

The big issue here is that while we are covered (as is the land owner) on days of events, the land owner(s) want to be insured for people poaching runs outside of sanctioned races or race days.

We have tried a few times to overcome this issue and each time it is cost prohibitive for the club.

 

[trust in gravity]

thanks sammyD! i like your club hat better!

 

[wsmtbdhvp]

Random questions

If you use a public road you should have a traffic management plan that indicates what you plant to do and what precautions are to be taken, this plan should be submitted to the local council and the local police area command.

I have done this as well as noise surveys, about $5,000 (Colo that was never built), consulting all neighbours within 1 kilometer of track (Colo and Kurrajong Park) and notifying all neighbours within the 1 Km area each race (Colo and Kurrajong).

If a site was to be used that was on a busy road we would have to establish a traffic management plan, as an example, signs with caution push bikes ahead and busses and trailers ahead warning turning area pleas slow down, 3 signs approaching each way. The local area command would also have to know and have approved the management plan, if police need to be present the event would have to possibley pay for the police presence.

 

[thecat]

The big issue here is that while we are covered (as is the land owner) on days of events, the land owner(s) want to be insured for people poaching runs outside of sanctioned races or race days.

We have tried a few times to overcome this issue and each time it is cost prohibitive for the club.

Sammy
I would have though that if someone was poaching runs on private property outside an authorised event they would be considered trespassers and thus under current law would not have a right to sue anyhow ???


Trust in gravity. to get permission to use a public road in the way you are suggesting, ie directing riders to ride up the road, you run into all sorts of dramas. a lot of the red tape has been cut but you still need permission off highway patrol and RTA. Notices may need to be placed so long in advance and a traffic control mech put in place on the day. You are generally looking at about 3months of red tape, preparation and paper work.

 

[bools]

Dargel

How does Dargel make there money out of a mtb event if the event is run by a mtb club , entry fees to the park ore % of race takings ? . Would it be viable to buy land ,build a track and rent it to clubs to hold events on specific days ?

 

[wsmtbdhvp]

Random Questions

How does Dargel make there money out of a mtb event if the event is run by a mtb club , entry fees to the park ore % of race takings ?
WSMTB pays Dargle $10 per rider for DH,the largest race held at Dargle was 135 so they picked up $1,350 for that one.

The endurance guys work out a much bigger fee that is not based on rider numbers > $5,000

Would it be viable to buy land ,build a track and rent it to clubs to hold events on specific days ?

Possibly I have long thought of forming Sydney MTB Park? as a public company at $100 or $500 a share, buying a piece of land at $1 to $2,000,000 adding transport $700,000 and facilities $300,000 and letting share holders ride for almost free?

I have not had the time to make up a business plan too see if it is viable. But Kurrajong Grass Ski Park is going down the path and Jamberoo may come back on line so we may be able to work out rider numbers and viability from these places.

 

[sammydog]

Sammy
I would have though that if someone was poaching runs on private property outside an authorised event they would be considered trespassers and thus under current law would not have a right to sue anyhow ???

The laws unfortunatley don't stop a person trying to go to court and trying to sue. That means that the land owner will still have to defend themselves in court with no guarentee that costs will be awarded if their defence is successful.

 

[Greenvalleys Freeride]

Would it be viable to buy land ,build a track and rent it to clubs to hold events on specific days ?

Possibly I have long thought of forming Sydney MTB Park? as a public company at $100 or $500 a share, buying a piece of land at $1 to $2,000,000 adding transport $700,000 and facilities $300,000 and letting share holders ride for almost free?

Jamberoo may come back on line so we may be able to work out rider numbers and viability from these places.

zoning of the land is a big issue , considering that areas that could be best used for mtb activities are in places of high conservational value, hence national parks etc... even private property needs to be zoned for recreational activity. hence an application for a spot rezone on a parcel of land.. I am doing this with a private property in the foothills of the macquarie pass national park. The valley before jamberoo. And it has cost a bit to even get the letter to the council . A flora and fauna study, and a good deal of interactment with a planning company experienced in these matters. Hopefully shellharbour council will give an ok to a spot rezone..

As for jambaroo , i don't think there is anything in the pipeline for mtb..