le Official 2007 Tour de France thread

[funky]

Blah Blah Blah

Sorry mate, I don't see your point? It is probably just me, but I couldn't decipher a the reason why you think doping should be legal.

Wombat...

Certainly the health of the athletes is a factor, but it is not the only factor in making 'drugs' illegal.

Moral issues also come into play. What does it say about society, and what example does it set, not just in sport, for younger generations?

Also, I don't think it "fair" that someone should be able to take drugs to try and get an advantage over someone else. Morally.

 

[oldbean]

Yes I accept that the line has to be drawn somewhere as to what is "natural" and acceptable and what isn't; but really, training all day, everyday to produce a living machine that is capable of incredible physical feats is pushing the boundaries of "natural" in my book.

So you're suggesting that riders training hours be restricted?

Proclaiming someone as a 'winner' or a road race, MTB race, gymnastics competition is all about acknowledging that they are 'better' than the other competitors, whether it is more skilled, fitter, more dedicated to training, whatever. The essence of the competition, however, comes down to the competitors using whatever natural advantage they have, whether that is a naturally larger heart, or a natural dispensation to enduring long amounts of pain when training and competing.

The thing with doping is that it is introducing an 'unnatural' element to the competitors. Something that takes away the praise of them for winning, to praising the drugs they used.

Of course, there's still the line to be drawn about what constitutes 'natural' and 'unnatural'. One suggestion I heard was that anything that has to be injected is unnatural. But can't you get testosterone 'patches'? Again, the line has to be drawn somewhere, but who know's where?

 

[Dumbellina]

Sorry mate, I don't see your point? It is probably just me, but I couldn't decipher a the reason why you think doping should be legal.

Wombat...

Certainly the health of the athletes is a factor, but it is not the only factor in making 'drugs' illegal.

Moral issues also come into play. What does it say about society, and what example does it set, not just in sport, for younger generations?

Also, I don't think it "fair" that someone should be able to take drugs to try and get an advantage over someone else. Morally.

Ummm read the post before you criticise it (others, please quote me when I break this golden rule).

Morals don't come into play. Its a matter of law (WADA Code) and its application to the facts at hand. Morals are things that churches preach to stop young people having fun (so its kind of like doping rules)

 

[oldbean]

Morals don't come into play. Its a matter of law (WADA Code) and its application to the facts at hand. Morals are things that churches preach to stop young people having fun (so its kind of like doping rules)

I would've thought that morals are what we all instinctively know ourselves to be the difference between right and wrong, whereas LAWS are what are made up by governing bodies to...

...stop young people having fun

 

[wombat]

So you're suggesting that riders training hours be restricted?

Proclaiming someone as a 'winner' or a road race, MTB race, gymnastics competition is all about acknowledging that they are 'better' than the other competitors, whether it is more skilled, fitter, more dedicated to training, whatever. The essence of the competition, however, comes down to the competitors using whatever natural advantage they have, whether that is a naturally larger heart, or a natural dispensation to enduring long amounts of pain when training and competing.

The thing with doping is that it is introducing an 'unnatural' element to the competitors. Something that takes away the praise of them for winning, to praising the drugs they used.

Of course, there's still the line to be drawn about what constitutes 'natural' and 'unnatural'. One suggestion I heard was that anything that has to be injected is unnatural. But can't you get testosterone 'patches'? Again, the line has to be drawn somewhere, but who know's where?

No I'm not suggesting training restrictions at all; I'm simply refuting the point that I keep hearing in discussion (albeit not in this thread perviously, it was just on my mind) that doping makes sport unfair, as it is already unfair. I'm also not saying that it being unfair is an issue, far from it, it's just the way it is.

The rest of my post was meant to question the very point you highlight about what constitutes "natural" means. Sure, synthesised drugs are pretty easy to classify as unatural, but what makes taking testosterone any less natural than consuming highly increased amounts of protein?

I don't want anyone to think that I advocate the legalisation of PEDs/doping either, as I think that limiting the risk athletes expose themselves to is important; I'm simply saying that if what you want is "fair" then the best way to achieve it is to legalise all training methods, as that would provide the fairest playing field (excluding team budgets of course, but at least it does away with "cheating").

Funky: I'd consider the ultimate objective of elite sport being to win, to be able to stand on the top step of the podium and have everyone identify that you are better than the rest of the competitors. I'm not exactly sure where morals come into that...

 

[dain2772]

so if you can reinject yourself with your own 'fresh and healthy' blood to replace some of your 'just ridden around half of bloody france' blood. why wouldn't you? Surely this cannot be hard to hide? Assuming that there is no tampering etc.

where can I get some of these testosterone patches? will they help me ride?

 

[Oddjob]

where can I get some of these testosterone patches? will they help me ride?

They help with recovery apprently, but you will need to shave your balls in order to apply them. Which is no bad thing, giggidy giggidy!

 

[Dumbellina]

Remember this cyclists pump man juice (testosterone, not the other man juice) and inject blood. Golfers mix creatine shakes.

 

[hdtvkss]

They help with recovery apprently, but you will need to shave your balls in order to apply them. Which is no bad thing, giggidy giggidy!

oh and you forgot to mention that after you use them for a sustained period of time your boys will shrink, and you wont be able to maintain an erection naturally... bot dont let that stop you

 

[dain2772]

Remember this cyclists pump man juice (testosterone, not the other man juice) and inject blood. Golfers mix creatine shakes.

so are these things publicly available? Does anyone have Dr Ferrari's number?

 

[hdtvkss]

so are these things publicly available? Does anyone have Dr Ferrari's number?

cmon, i dare you to walk into any doctors office and ask him politely for some man juice

 

[Oddjob]

oh and you forgot to mention that after you use them for a sustained period of time your boys will shrink, and you wont be able to maintain an erection naturally... bot dont let that stop you

And it will make you hung like a donkey...

 

[TonyG]

And it will make you hung like a donkey...

A female donkey. I believe the saying is hung like a wizard’s sleave.

 

[funky]

Ummm read the post before you criticise it (others, please quote me when I break this golden rule).

Morals don't come into play. Its a matter of law (WADA Code) and its application to the facts at hand. Morals are things that churches preach to stop young people having fun (so its kind of like doping rules)

I'm quoting you. Now.

I did read your post, hence I made my post. I said I didn't understand what your point was. I even conceded that it may well have been just me, which you obviously missed before you decided to criticise me. Ho Hum. Move on.

Morals don't come into play?

I think this is totally about morals. As oldbean said, morals are about differentiating between what is right and what is wrong. Laws are generally a reflection of morals.

For instance.

Morally it is not right to kill someone. We have a law which says you can't just kill someone.

Similarly, morally it is not right to cheat in sport through taking 'drugs' (etc). We have laws (WADA or otherwise) saying you are not allow to take 'drugs'.

Just because I don't agree with you (honestly I still can't understand the point of your post), doesn't mean I am criticising you.

 

[Oracle]

oh and you forgot to mention that after you use them for a sustained period of time your boys will shrink, and you wont be able to maintain an erection naturally... bot dont let that stop you

Ah, that's what the team doctor is for... to prescribe some blue pills should the man juice doseage be too high!

 

[funky]

Funky: I'd consider the ultimate objective of elite sport being to win, to be able to stand on the top step of the podium and have everyone identify that you are better than the rest of the competitors.

Agree.

I'm not exactly sure where morals come into that...

Morally you don't go about it by cheating (eg, by knee capping your opposition or taking performance enhancing 'drugs', or pushing them off their bike when no one is looking or...)

 

[...jim]

The whole doping thing takes on different perspectives depending where you sit.

For spectators one can argue that it only adds to the theatre of the event. For most of the people watching the tour, the outcome impacts little on their lives other than from an entertainment point of view - and there's no way anyone can argue that the last few days haven't inspired compulsive consumption of the available media - ie: been entertaining.

Sports administrators are hamstrung. They can really do nothing beyond say, "Drug are bad, m-kay", make a bunch of rules and police them.

Riders themselves are where change has to come - or does it? What each individual that makes the choice of one enhansement over another (legal or otherwise) is decide where their behaviour sits morally. Is it right or wrong (which for some is clearly more, "Will I or won't I get caught?'). Really, that's only a question they can answer. (Surely we're beyond the stage that structured doping went on without the knowledge of the individual involved).

It remains a fact that there will always be an undetectable way to gain an 'unfair' advantage over your opponent. What has to happen is the culture surrounding those making the decision (athlete/team) has to change. The only way this is going to change is if it becomes as morally unacceptable to dope as it would be to pay someone to take out your opposition (eg:with a stray dog).

That may be coming through 'name and shame' and 'zero tolerance'. Who'd be Vino or Rasmussen today? And how about the Cofidis guys? Moreni was ARRESTED on the line and taken away in a police car - and his team mates escorted away by police.

I hope it works.

 

[n plus one]

Anyone got anything to say about the Tour?












Sorry, couldn't help myself.

 

[wombat]

Agree.



Morally you don't go about it by cheating (eg, by knee capping your opposition or taking performance enhancing 'drugs', or pushing them off their bike when no one is looking or...)

Yeap, that'd be a fair moral judgement IMO, but my point is that morals are the individual's subjective guide as to what is right and wrong. Saying that doping is "morally wrong" is like saying that recreational drug use is morally wrong: it depends entirely on the individual's perceptions.

You might think that doping is morally wrong, and that someone who doesn't feel that way has loose morals, but there are others who may feel that your morals are loose for supporting competition at all. We all know how good it feels to succeed, and how terrible it can feel to be beaten, so is it morally right to deliberately try to inflict that sort of terrible feeling on other people?
Hell, O'Grady said in his 60 minutes interview that one of things he loved most about cycling was knowing the pain he was inflicting on the other riders.
Pleasure from inflicting pain on others? Plenty would have morals that would say that was "wrong".

 

[at the drive in]

The one good thing about all the riders being caught doping is that christophe Moreau might gain a few places instead of losing them.