alchemist
Manly Warringah MTB Club
He didn't, its on Stu's, you need to smile for the cameras
Working Week Series #5 Yellowmundee
- Thread starter Mattydv
- Start date
go to bed jessica
Likes Dirt
As one of the "sponsered" riders, I take the endurance races seriously, but never do some of the stuff I'd do at a state or national round. You've gotta accept that you will hit slower traffic and you will lose time.
BUT, I do agree a little with bg851. Some of the solo guys and girls can be pretty shitty with you if you dare to call track. I'd crack the shits too if I had 8hrs of moving over for other riders, it's one of the main reasons I have no will to ride solo. But some of the attitudes are just shit to be honest.
That said, you'd have to do more than refuse to give way to make me barge pass you!
I wouldn't normally care enough to mention this, in fact I'm already thinking "shutup you elite wanker" but I'd thought I would stick up for bg851 before he gets crucified!
BUT, I do agree a little with bg851. Some of the solo guys and girls can be pretty shitty with you if you dare to call track. I'd crack the shits too if I had 8hrs of moving over for other riders, it's one of the main reasons I have no will to ride solo. But some of the attitudes are just shit to be honest.
That said, you'd have to do more than refuse to give way to make me barge pass you!
I wouldn't normally care enough to mention this, in fact I'm already thinking "shutup you elite wanker" but I'd thought I would stick up for bg851 before he gets crucified!
DaGonz
Eats Squid
I don't agree with name and shame unless it's a repeat offender who has already been spoken to. I plan on emailing said sponsor indicating that I thought there riders are not behaving in a manner that may not be befitting their Brand/Image. Having said that, like I said, the guy could have just stuffed up, lined something up and got it wrong, who knows!
I find that hard to believe that is the reason or case, certainly for most of the solo riders I know of or have been associated with.
Solo riders are a problem for these kind of events (remembering I am one), but you need to remember that these guys (and gals) have a different psychy to their racing. A solo rider going "just wait a bit mate" could be for many reasons, usually about them just making it around the course without falling over or crashing, and sometimes about conserving energy
if you want some tips re solo riders (same would be true for any tired rider, beginner, etc... I'd imagine)
* alot of things can come down to momentum and efficiency where just being allowed to nail a section could mean not having to get off, or cramp or something. I certainly will ask people to wait if it means the difference for me making something or not and will generally call back "can you wait till after x..."
* restarting can be a bitch. You're tired, your legs hurt, and your on a climb gritting your teeth. There is nothing worse than someone behind you yelling track and the prospect of finding a spot where you can pull over, If you know there is a section that flattens out or gets wider without having the solo rider stop, maybe either wait or suggest that as a suitable location?
* Doesn't matter how much faster you think you are, fast or techy corners & descents are not places to overtake, Full stop.
* I don't know any tracks that are 100% single track. Fire trail exits are a good spot to pass slower riders
* Slow corners, either up the inside or round the outside. But there needs to be room and plenty of communication with the rider. The rider may even call it or be able to stall it enough to let you pass.
* don't just go "and again" and barge through if your 2nd or 3rd in line... unless the rider has quite clearly stopped or pulled right over, or it has been communicated with the rider that there is a bit of a train behind.
* most importantly, have a conversation with them. Don't just yell "Track" or "on your left" or whatever and expect them to pull over. "hey buddy, how you coping... how many laps... if there's a safe spot I can get by on..." will also give you an indication if the rider isn't all with it in which case you might want to give them a bit more space, maybe even suggest the spot where it might be safe. I know if I'm really shattered, and someone calls track, it can take a bit to to context switch from "must finish..." to "must find somewhere safe to pull over..."
sometimes it can be hard, you look for a spot where you can safely pull over or whatever and finally go "yeah look, can you wait to the fire road?"
So yes, they're a big problem when you mix it up: they're tired, sore, possibly a little grumpy, maybe not thinking clearly, and possibly (certainly in the later hours) just trying to make it around the course without cramping or falling over. Funnilly enough, that could just as easily be a less experienced rider just out for their 3rd lap or whatever... I saw some pretty tired looking riders out there towards the end of yesterday that definately weren't soloists!
I know we can be slower, and I know mixing soloists up with fresh legged team riders can be a pain (don't worry, we can think the same thing), but your life doesn't depend on whether you win or lose or not and rarely does the time you lost behind a slower rider of any description mean the difference between positions on the podium. Also remember they're racing too! and just because they're going slow doesn't mean they're not trying to defend (or catch) 10secs behind the next guy... quite often the frustration for us, is riders insisting they get passed or jam they way in on whatever flat or hilly bit, only to be dogged slow in the descents or techy bit where you normally try to make your time up, so it works both ways.
Otherwise, I'd be interested in knowing specific cases. I'd be very surprised if it's the arrogance of "I'm a soloist, so I can hog the track" is part of the equation.
Cheers
Gonz
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DaGonz
Eats Squid
Wow... don't I feel the 'tard. Is this really a rampant thing? Do they just ignore you or bite back or what?
Cheers
Gonz - hoping he's not been one of them...
i soloed it too
and one guy that stuck in my mind was matt flemming as he overtook me a couple of times.
each time hed call out "let me know when i can overtake safely"
id move over as soon as i could tell him which side and hed thank me as he passed.
by his being polite, left me with a good impression of him.
99% of riders take the same approach as 99% of riders are out there because we enjoy it and its a fun way to spend your sunday.
and one guy that stuck in my mind was matt flemming as he overtook me a couple of times.
each time hed call out "let me know when i can overtake safely"
id move over as soon as i could tell him which side and hed thank me as he passed.
by his being polite, left me with a good impression of him.
99% of riders take the same approach as 99% of riders are out there because we enjoy it and its a fun way to spend your sunday.
go to bed jessica
Likes Dirt
Not rampant at all! Maybe once or twice a race, normally towards the end when everyone's all tired and cranky. Just people cracking the shits with track being called all the time I think. (I always try to be nice about asking to pass!)
Like I said, not worth mentioning normally but given bg851's post I thought it should be.
I think that we should get you to write up some passing guidelines Gonz, your post was the best piece I've seen on passing etiquette, sums it up nicely.
Now, riders with ipods not hearing you at all, there's a problem.........
ebuk
Likes Dirt
How do you know they are solo riders? Sure there are maybe a handful that are spottable by name / sponsor but are you getting past riders turning to check what number is on the plate? Or are you talking about a select few individuals?
Some riders are (maybe always will be knobs). As a soloist who is very slow I don't mind pulling over. I do mind people yelling track and expecting me to just get out of the way and I have experienced this from varying types of riders. The vast majority however are friendly and considerate.
thecat
NSWMTB, Central Tableland MBC
How does that make it any more right to barge pass? In an enduro the rules for passing are that the onus is on the rider in front to move over "When they get a chance"
On the whole this works well .
Most people get out of the way as soon as you call. Some people move over before you get a chance to call. It's mostly the arrogant wannabes that barge past with 10m to go to a fire road or with out calling.
Sometimes there are misunderstandings but in the case pointed out the guy barged past and cause the girl to crash, then kept going without asking if she was alright...
There is no excuse what so ever for that.
DaGonz
Eats Squid
Gordo has a nice approach, the conversation is usually along the lines of:
Gordo: "Track if you get a chance"
MuchSlowerGonz "Ah yep, on my right up here"
Gordo: "ok just passing on your right.... have a good one"
So he just confirms the pass before doing it. Admittedly I've had a couple of incidents where "on my right" or "on my left" was met with "oh I meant my other left" in a manouvre gone wrong...
anwyay... I'll stop now
Cheers
Gonz
alchemist
Manly Warringah MTB Club
Yup. If you have a problem with someone speak to the race director at the race.
thecat
NSWMTB, Central Tableland MBC
And then bag them out publicly on Farkin
I know there solo because they say, I'm solo mate, I'm not moving over for anyone, or words to that effect. True, in probably 4 years, its probably happened only half a dozen times, but it certainly sticks in my mind! Maybe it was the same guy??
Like everything in life, its only a very few selfish people on both sides of the situation to cause problems, 95% of people are fine.
And The Gonz, I'm not sure who you are, but by the list you have gone to the trouble of writing out here, I'm sure you great, maybe it could be handed out at the next endurance event!
Oh, and for the people that say its only an endurance event, so people should take it a bit easy, I agree 100%...BUT what's going to happen at the 24hour this year, when there is thousands of dollars on the line for fastest laps, and teams positons etc.....you cant still say oh its only an enduarance event so it doesnt matter then....... maybe they should make the fastest day lap the very first lap of the day only so people getting in the way of those fast few who are contenders for the cash wont be a problem???
and by the way, this will never be me going for fastest lap, I'm just looking at possible problems that may happen......
alchemist
Manly Warringah MTB Club
By all means. And if you are going to barge past somebody, make sure you dont have your name on the back of your jersey.And then bag them out publicly on Farkin
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The fastest laps are usually the first or second laps anyway, where everyone is fresh and there are no lap-ees to get past. I suspect that any super fast wippets going for the big money at all costs mid-race might find themselves getting shoved into the closest tree as they try to barge (there's that word again) past.....
I can't really remember any times that I've got really sh#tty with overtaking riders (ie. people overtaking me). I've only heard the stories. For me, the worst ones are probably where maybe one or two cut back in too early almost hitting my front wheel (probably would've if I didn't take evasive maneuvers), and I can remember one calling TRACK from a fair way behind me near the top of a climb (in the kind of tone expecting me to wait to let them through before the downhill), only then to hold me up on the downhill (I think I buzzed his back wheel a couple of times to let him know). Occasionally, I'll even pass without calling, but I'll go off onto the rough edges, and get fully past (and then some) before cutting back in. Is that rude?
It's the guys who EXPECT you to give them the track NOW (ie. expect you slow down and pull off the track), when there's a perfectly good spot coming up in the next 10 seconds that is suggested to them. If they can't wait, sure, they can try to get past, but don't expect me to slow down or go off into the grassy/muddy section while you try to do it. If it is a while until the next good overtaking bit, and it sounds like the guy is really motoring, I'll usually ask them if they want to get past, and get off the track pretty much right away. I don't usually hear "track" very often, because I hear them coming, speed up until the next overtaking section, or ask them if they want to get past before they even have to say anything. I probably don't have that many probs because the fast guys are only heaps faster than me on the climbs (where there's usually good overtaking spots).
As for the other way 'round, I am usually pretty patient, but have had a few horror laps at the canberra 24hr, stuck behind heaps of people in the first few laps of the race for ALL of the singletrack (don't let a slow rider go out for the first lap). One time I was stuck behind some slow rider for a long section of single track, she wouldn't respond to anything I said (ie. "can I get past when it is possible"... "how about the wider bit after this corner"...), so I lost patience, and just let her know I was coming past on a short wider section ("onyerright"), went past her off the track almost in the trees, she stayed right in the middle , I got past cleanly, but she was pissed off about it ("dickhead.."). I felt a little bad about it - more that my actions upset her, rather than the action itself.
I suppose it is all a matter of subjective judgement. On here, you will hear as many different opinions on it as there are riders. The slow riders have a different opinion to the mid-pace riders, and the elite guys a different opinion again. As usual, like the comments on the commuting thread, it probably comes down to how much time the faster one will save vs how much time the slower one will lose if they pull off the track NOW. The problem is, some people don't think of the other guy.
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craign
Likes Dirt
Okay, my turn to bitch.
The ones that really really shit me are those that try and pass me while I'm waiting for an opportunity to pass the rider in front of me. They seem to assume I'm slow because I'm not pushing past. They yell track and expect both of us to move. I generally yell back explaining I'm waiting for a safe opportunity to pass. If they do squeeze through which sadly happens sometimes I usually have to pass them later anyway...
I have to say most of the really top guys, i.e. Matt Fleming, etc... are really good with passing.
The ones that really really shit me are those that try and pass me while I'm waiting for an opportunity to pass the rider in front of me. They seem to assume I'm slow because I'm not pushing past. They yell track and expect both of us to move. I generally yell back explaining I'm waiting for a safe opportunity to pass. If they do squeeze through which sadly happens sometimes I usually have to pass them later anyway...
I have to say most of the really top guys, i.e. Matt Fleming, etc... are really good with passing.
Mattydv
Likes Bikes and Dirt
Again, it depends on the rider. If it were tight singletrack that was to open into fireroad sometime in the next hundred metres, I would see it as impatient, but not necessarily rude. If someone was holding you up however, therefore stopping you railing the few hundred metres of flowing ST, no it's not rude at all. Myself, if the track was to open up in the next hundred metres to FR, and someone called 'track', I would very quickly quicken my pace so I don't have to pull off the track, wait till the FR and then try and stick on their wheel. So I guess it comes down to subjective judgement.
Argh! On Sunday, going into hidden bridge, as there is a downhill corner before HB that you can rail fast, taking a high line and then really pushing it hard before you hit that muddy pinch, I tried to take it as fast as I could, avoiding the braking bumps and trying to make it up the pinch with minimal pedalling so as to not slide out. There was a girl, approximately 16 y.o. that was walking up the middle of the pinch, on the only rideable line. I called 'track' from 30m away really loudly so as to give her plenty of warning (mind you I was travelling ~35km/h), as she didn't move I called 'track' again from about 15m away, again she didn't move, I yelled out again from 5m away as loud as I was willing and she still didn't move, just kept walking up the main line. Which caused me to take a wider line, which although I didn't see as being worth getting angry over and wasting my energy, it did throw off my momentum and caused me to slide out. I could hear her music blaring in her ear pieces over the wind from a metre away. As I rode past her I promptly called 'track' and gave her a glare. Now whilst I can appreciate that she is most likely new to the sport and does not know the procedure for walking a section that she cannot ride, it would seem common sense to me, to not walk in the middle of the track, especially up a midly technical section.
Was the issue of iPods not adressed at the start of the race?
Did anyone else have these kind of problems??
thecat
NSWMTB, Central Tableland MBC
It should be compulsory... Keep the bastards honest.make sure you dont have your name on the back of your jersey.
thecat
NSWMTB, Central Tableland MBC
Funniest bitof the race. first lap in the congestion some moron barged through only to go OTB on the next corner... Not one person asked if that particular rider was OK
alchemist
Manly Warringah MTB Club
AND it's good for televisionIt should be compulsory... Keep the bastards honest.