Yanks and Guns: and a lefty's possible change of heart...

[PINT of Stella. mate!]

I read this earlier in the day and it got me thinking...

Americans call for gun freedom
By Kati Whitaker
BBC Radio 4's Crossing Continents

In the aftermath of the Virginia Tech massacre, many Americans have been campaigning for permission to carry guns in more places, even churches and schools.


"Imagine you are in a restaurant and a mad man is walking around from table to table, pointing a gun, taking aim and pulling the trigger, going to the next person, taking aim, pulling the trigger and so on," says Suzanna Hupp.

"Even if you have chosen not to have a gun with you - don't you hope the guy behind you has one? Just imagine that."

But Suzanna Hupp does not have to imagine.

It was October 1991 when a gunman entered the diner where Suzanna, a Texan chiropractor, was having lunch with her parents.

The man methodically executed 23 people including Suzanna's parents.

Suzanna had a gun. But since Texan state law at the time banned people from carrying guns in public places, she had left it in her car.


Nobody could have stopped the first couple of murders but it sure wouldn't have been a body bag of 32

"My gun was 100 feet away in my car, completely useless to me," she says.

"I was angry at my legislators because they had legislated me out of the right to protect myself and my family."

The massacre was, until Virginia Tech, the largest mass shooting by a single gunman in the US.

Now, in the wake of that tragedy, Suzanna is one of a growing body of Americans campaigning for the availability of more, rather than fewer, guns.

"Nobody could have stopped that guy from the first couple of murders but it sure wouldn't have been a body bag total of 32," she says.


Statistics are hard to come by, but at Saxet Gun Show in Austin Texas, there was plenty of anecdotal evidence to back the claim that since Virginia Tech, more Texans, at least, are now applying for licences to carry guns.

At a huge convention centre in the southern suburbs of Austin, Judith Baker of A Texas Girl's Guns firearm sales company was talking a young woman through the safety features on her new handgun.

"Gun sales have gone up since Virginia Tech. Not just my own sales but many dealers and distributors have also increased their gun sales," she says.

"And we are not just talking men here but I am seeing a lot more women wanting to get their concealed handgun licence."

Some 48 states in the US issue licences to allow the carrying of concealed weapons to those who pass a background check.

But states vary in their restrictions. Thirty eight states, including Virginia, ban weapons at schools.

In Texas, certain places like churches, courthouses and schools, are designated "gun-free zones".

It is an exception that Texas governor Rick Perry recently challenged with the wholehearted endorsement of campaigners like Suzanna Hupp.

"It is my fervent belief that when legislators create a list of places where people can't carry guns, what they have actually done is create a shopping list for a mad man," he said.

Guns in classes

Andrew Sugg is a student of aviation science at Baylor University at Waco and a member of the newly formed national body Students for Concealed Carry on Campus.

He is spearheading a campaign for students to be allowed to carry concealed firearms into the classroom.


"I actually got angry that Virginia Tech had said 'no you can't have a gun', and here's this incident, the second-largest school shooting in the world and no-one could do anything about it," he says.

"Now, when I walk into my own class, I have to think: 'Where do I want to sit so I can make a quick getaway?'

"I look at my book bag and think: 'What can I throw at someone who comes through the door? What could I do to stall him and let everybody get away or what can I do to stop him from doing this?'."

It is a mindset that is of considerable worry to the campus police force.

Lethal combination?

Baylor University has a dedicated force of 24 police officers who are trained and drilled to respond to a firearms attack such as that at Virginia Tech.

Its chief, James Doak, said that the potential for strife is considerable among its 14,000 18-to-22 years-olds - whether it is stress of exams, girlfriend problems or simply hot tempers.

Add guns to the equation and the combination could be lethal.

"We cannot rely on students who have not been drilled in these situations to respond properly. Would they freeze up? Would they have a sense of terror in their hearts so they respond inappropriately?" he says.

"Our officers have a level of life experience which students can't possibly have at the age of 21 or 22."

But like many other Americans, Mr Sugg points to the Second Amendment, the right to keep and bear arms, as a fundamental justification for his position.

"Guns are to me a freedom, that is what won us our freedom during the revolutionary war and we've had them ever since," he says.

Now whilst I find guns repulsive yet strangely compellent (-I grewup on a diet of eighties US action thrillers, War movies and Hong Kong gangster films) I've always kept with the firm belief that the fact that people like ME would like to own guns is the very reason they should be banned in the first place.

However I then started to think about when I first arrived Melbourne as a fresh faced knees-high-to-a-grasshopper backpacker in 2000 and there was the huge debate about opening 'safe' centres for heroin addicts where they could obtain free needles and shoot up in 'relative' safety. At the time, Melbourne was in the grip of a huge heroin epidemic that I hadn't seen the likes of since growing up in Scotland in the '80's and it was clear that the current policy of strict prohibition wasn't working. Junkies were OD'ing left, right and centre (Alright, I spent most of my time in St Kilda so may have been witness to a wee bit more than the average suburbnanite but still, it was a major problem...) and it was clear that something needed to be done. The head in the sand approach was just leading to more deaths. The idea of the drop-in centres got quashed and the deaths continued. When I left Oz at the start of 2001 the situation hadn't really improved. It has now but I think that's more down to self education and the first hand experiences of people who knew addicts and weren't likely to follow the same path.

Anyway the current situation in the States seems similar. The US with it's ridiculously free gun-laws and fairly violent and fear-based culture (yeah Michael Moore actually got one right with Bowling for Columbine) looks to be beyond repair and I can't quite help but think that the current policy of half-arsed prohibition isn't doing any good. Going for total prohibition will never work there (The Untouchables? The Revolution?) so the only other option actually seems to me to be, F*** it, Arm everyone!

Admittedly this could lead to a huge rise in gun-related accidents/ fatal 'crimes of passion' etc but at the same time, the current situation isn't working too well and it would at least reduce the chance of a lone yankee nut trying to steal aussie record holder Martin Bryant's crown...

Seriously, though after reading the above interview with the crazy redneck woman. I couldn't help but find myself agreeing with a few of her points...



Does this mean I have to start listening to C'n'W and watch NASCAR now?

 

[NCR600]

I can't see why this wouldn't work quite well, even though it's only attacking a symptom of a wider malaise.

The access to firearms is tighter now even in the USA than it has ever been, yet people feel the need to solve their problems by not only blowing their own head off, but taking as many other people with them as possible. Massacres like the VT shooting and our own Port Arthur were unheard of 50 years ago.

Handing out concealed carry permits to a tightly controlled and appropriately trained section of the populace would almost certainly cause a downturn in violent crime (as occurred when concealed carry was introduced in vermont... no I'm not going to quote sources on that, but there is HEAPS of statisitcs on the net)

However, I'm not so sure about allowing students to carry handguns in schools. I don't really think a mix of teenage hormones, inexperience and firearms to be a particularly good one!

 

[leitch]

the problem with stories like the one above is there are always going to be things you agree with, unless you're wearing blinkers. it makes you start second guessing your own opinions, and i guess in that sense they do what they are designed to do.

in the case of gun laws, while it may seem like arming everyone to the teeth is a good option, cos then they can just shoot the prick trying to shoot them, all it can possibly lead to is a rediculous rise in gun violence.

prohibition, while it isnt going to stop all gun trafficking etc, will greatly reduce the accessability of firearms, as we have seen in australia. put it this way. in the spur of the moment when you walk into your home and find your wife getting banged six different kinds of crazy by some other guy, you're not going to go "fuck this, i'm going to go and wait 6 weeks for my gun lisence so i can kill this mo'fucker", are you? you'll go at it fisticuffs style, and noone dies.

while you're never going to be able to stop those who are the dedicated sociopaths, prohibiting the carrying of firearms is something that would aid greatly in reducing the sheer number of firearm-related deaths that the US seems to suffer.

you're never going to stop it all, but you can damn well reduce it to a more acceptable level.

who knows, maybe with gun prohibition the redneck lady above wouldn't have had to worry about her gun being in the car, because instead of a gun, the guy would have come in pointing a sawn off broomstick at people yelling "bang! bang! bang!"

 

[ajay]

Does this mean I have to start listening to C'n'W and watch NASCAR now?

Yes, you have officially been corrupted!

It is in a way a cold reminder of what lax gun-laws will actually do. To further ensue a culture of violence as a primary measure of protection is yet another nail in the coffin of the American (and any other state with similar laws and cultures) ideal - freedom. What the fuck does that even mean anymore...

Id confidently hazard a guess that she isnt the only citizen who holds those views.

Interesting read none the less.

 

[PINT of Stella. mate!]

I totally agree with y'all (f***, my inner cletus is showing through already) and I'm always firmly of the belief that having EVERYBODY armed to the teeth will lead to more bloodshed, yet I couldn't help but be struck by the similarities between the rednecks*/less gun control debate and the heroin addicts/easier access to safer facilities debate. My essential argument for the latter was always that "Yeah i know we shouldn't be feeding their habit but the current policy JUST ISN'T F***ING WORKING AND HASN'T BEEN FOR YEARS!" and the 2nd amendment types are now using the same argument.

I can't really find fault with them for that...


*actually I shouldn't be so discriminatory. I'm pretty sure a lot of blacks, hispanics, mormons and eccentric frizzy haired record producers are all quite partial to a 'piece'

 

[NCR600]

The problem with gun control in the USA is that the horse has well and truly bolted.

No amount of legislation there will wrest hanguns from the digits of the criminals and nutters, who tend not to take much notice of legislation.

It's a bit different to here were handguns have been very tightly controlled certainly for the last 50 years. And STILL crims have no problem obtaining them for their nefarious activities, and at a guess, I'd say NOTHING will stop them getting ahold of them either.

The war on drugs is a failure, the war on terrorism is a failure, why would a war on handguns (or any other type of firearm) be any more effective?

 

[leitch]

maybe we should set up safe gun-use houses. just big f-off warehouses full of crates and stuff where gun toting hicks can go and play war until there's only one left standing. there goes any innocent bystanders.

y'all have a good time shooting eachother, now...

 

[NCR600]

maybe we should set up safe gun-use houses. just big f-off warehouses full of crates and stuff where gun toting hicks can go and play war until there's only one left standing. there goes any innocent bystanders.

y'all have a good time shooting eachother, now...

Pretty simplistic view.

Why is it that a certain section of the community characterises all gun owners as rednecks, hicks, right wingers, psychopaths etc?

I'm about as left wing as they come. I own rifles and if I had the time and money required to meet the licensing requirements, I'd own hanguns too.

Maybe if there was a little more tolerance for people with different interests in this world, then mental cases wouldn't feel the need to shoot up classrooms after a lifetime of bullying? Which is not condoning that sort of thing.

Maybe even, perish the thought, Muslim Doctors wouldn't feel the need to drive burning Jeeps through the doors of airport terminals.

Guns have always been around. Massacres are a new invention. Perhaps actually doing something about WHY people want to kill 32 others would be more productive than highly visible yet innefectual and expensive gun legislation?

 

[leitch]

Pretty simplistic view.

Why is it that a certain section of the community characterises all gun owners as rednecks, hicks, right wingers, psychopaths etc?

I'm about as left wing as they come. I own rifles and if I had the time and money required to meet the licensing requirements, I'd own hanguns too.

Maybe if there was a little more tolerance for people with different interests in this world, then mental cases wouldn't feel the need to shoot up classrooms after a lifetime of bullying? Which is not condoning that sort of thing.

Maybe even, perish the thought, Muslim Doctors wouldn't feel the need to drive burning Jeeps through the doors of airport terminals.

Guns have always been around. Massacres are a new invention. Perhaps actually doing something about WHY people want to kill 32 others would be more productive than highly visible yet innefectual and expensive gun legislation?

i was having a joke, mate.. you didnt actually take that seriously?

and im probably one person you needn't be preaching tolerance and acceptance to, either.

other than that, i totally 100% agree with your last paragraph. prevention is always better than a cure, and i imagine in a lot of cases (especially in young people) it could have to do with inadequate counselling services etc. my point above still stands, though. widely accessible firearms makes it easier for those who need help to take things into their own hands. maybe restrictive legislation and other preventative measures (more accessible psychiatric help etc?) should go hand in hand.

 

[NCR600]

I'm glad you were joking!

One of my pet hates is being lumped in with the loony right on the issue of firearms. I guess you could say I have an itchy trigger finger aboout it [/JOKE]

 

[leitch]

One of my pet hates is being lumped in with the loony right on the issue of firearms. I guess you could say I have an itchy trigger finger aboout it

see thats the problem! bloody rednecks jumping to their .38 everytime anyone goes disrespectin' them!



okay back on topic now...

 

[Drizz]

If you going to arm the population, don't forget the tourist! A Canon SLR is just no match to any 9mm and I can just see poor old Sven from peaceful Sweden getting eaten alive by the local gang-bangers at Queens.

Make sure you setup gun shop at the airports, at least give the well off tourist a chance to arm themselves. The downside is that now you need a full company of marines deployed at every airport around the clock.

 

[johnny]

Yeah, fark it. Let the implosion begin.

 

[demo man]

If laws do pass that allow almost anyone to have a gun almost anywhere, is it a fair guess that the shit will hit the fan pretty quickly, and then something will happen and everyone shits themselves and gun rights then get tightened up?


I am imagining a whole lot of multiple-gun battles across streets, in shops and generally in public places. I'm probably imagining bullshit.


No guns in suburban/city areas at all would be my answer. Shooting for sport is okay, but guns have to live at the shooting galleries. Hunting is okay, but similarly tight laws to Australia in place for gun ownership etc.
Cops keep their guns, but maybe not forever.

 

[johnny]

Yeah but Demo, the US is way too far gone now for that. I agree that in the case of the US, the tipping point has possibly been reached. They've had a gun culture for so long that it's coming back to bite them in the arse.

China has hardly any guns at all. That is definately a far better option. Anyone that thinks that "Oh, people will just find another way to kill each other" should come spend some time here, Japan, Germany, Sweden, Korea etc. Then go to Brazil, the US, Russia, Africa, etc., and ask themselves where they would rather live.

A place where you don't have a gun, nor do you need one, or a place where you need to take one to the shops, school and sleep with one under your pillow. I know which one I'd rather!

 

[toodles]

I'm all for it. I just hope they don't do a half arsed job of arming their population even more. I mean, what if criminals get a tank but ordinary citizens can only carry guns? Without someone having a rocket launcher handy, those innocent bystanders would be forced to sit and watch as the tank rolled through town crushing whomever crossed it's path.

I concede that had Virginia Tech students been allowed to carry guns to class, there's a small chance that the massacre would have ended sooner than it did. But it's worth considering the increase in incident prevalence vs the decrease in severity of incidents. You might have saved some of those 32 people by arming the student population, but in 10 years how many gun related deaths are their likely to be?

Playing "keep up" with the mass murdering minority is retarded. For one, the columbine high massacre wouldn't have been prevented by an increased rate of high-powered personal protection amongst students. The boys choose their target and anticipated defensive and escape routes. They had limited but capable explosives know how and we'd all be tearily remembering the Colombine High school bombings now instead of the shootings.

Further arming the public will increase the prevelance of gun related crimes, but I very much doubt that it will serve as a deterrent for the severely mentally ill, sociopaths, psychopaths, misfits, spurned lovers and disgruntled employees.

 

[scblack]

I think one of the biggest arguments against carrying guns would have to be the British Police Service. They generally don't carry guns, and manage a very good job.

If a person feels the need to carry a weapon into a restaurant, it is a very clear indication that America is NOT a civilised society.

 

[scblack]

A place where you don't have a gun, nor do you need one, or a place where you need to take one to the shops, school and sleep with one under your pillow. I know which one I'd rather!

100% agreed.

 

[Drizz]

Most of the gun crimes are assoicated with illegal fire-arms which most America cities have an abundant supply of. Any laws on fire-arm ownerships are related to legal firearms which in most case isn't actually the problem. So in a way tighter gun restriction will not see much of an impact on gun crimes overall.

As for harsher penalties, that just not having a deterrent effect either. Most people have no intention of being caught so the length of the jail sentence usually play little part in the criminal's mind before he rolled the local store.

Maybe arming the public is a plausible solution, just make sure you got a state of the art hospitial with a super effiency Ambulance service to support the aftermath. Than the downside to a armed public is that they just shoot you for your wallet instead of rolling you for it.

 

[rednightmare]

Pretty simplistic view.
Guns have always been around. Massacres are a new invention. Perhaps actually doing something about WHY people want to kill 32 others would be more productive than highly visible yet innefectual and expensive gun legislation?

innefectual(sic) and expensive gun legislation

theres a pretty strong correlation between gun laws and gun related violence. look at the difference in terms of gun related violence between the US(right to bear arms) and Australia, UK, Japan(tight regulations)....