The HiFi thread

[FR Drew]

Lab 420 seems like it's a decent deck (I have to admit I cringed when I saw the name Realistic). My guess is that the cartridge is at the end of its life. You may be able to get a replacement stylus for it, depends a lot on how much you are willing to pay. I expect that grabbing a decent new MM cartridge would do wonders for your sound quality.

Prior to my most recent upgrade to a nice MC cartridge, I was using a Shure m97XE. Not in moving coil territory, but no slouch either.

http://www.needledoctor.com/Shure-M97XE?sc=2&category=402

Make sure that you buy an alignment gauge so that you can get it properly set up for minimal tracking error and if you have a stylus balance for checking downforce, I'd use that as well.

Same place also selling Ortofon 2M Red at 100 bucks. Again, well worth a look.

 

[markb84]

Check to see that the stylus appears intact. If possible with a magnifying glass in front of strong light. You should see a sharp point at the end. Using very fine grade sandpaper run it lightly along the tip front to back to clean it.

Pull out the cartridge and re-seat it to ensure there are no bad contacts.

Crackles and the like are usually signs of an issue with the cartridge but don't rule out the phono stage if its all new stuff. The last thing you want to do is fork out money for a replacement stylus and then find its the preamp.

 

[jayjay3032]

Being a "total vinyl newbie" maybe he just doesn't know what a record sounds like...

 

[FR Drew]

Being a "total vinyl newbie" maybe he just doesn't know what a record sounds like...

Seriously, a well sorted vinyl rig has a noise floor that is all but inaudible and has tone, timing and dynamics that leave CD whimpering in the corner.

Yes, poor quality vinyl in uncared for condition with an unclean and mediocre stylus/cartridge on a dodgy arm and deck with an afterthought phono stage sounds crap. I don't think anyone disputes this, but unless you've heard a good vinyl system, it's quite possible that you don't know what a record can sound like either...

Just sayin...

My current amp is a Denon receiver being used in direct stereo mode, but it's being fed by a Garrard 401 with an upgraded bearing and custom built plinth, an Ortofon Rondo Blue MC cartridge into a Musical Fidelity VLPS phono stage with VPSU offboard dedicated power supply and feeding a pair of diy vifa based speakers, and the best of my vinyl is truly stunning to the point where the CD's barely get out of the cupboard if I have the vinyl version.

 

[Chalkie]

Being a "total vinyl newbie" maybe he just doesn't know what a record sounds like...

Yeah, I said i'm a newbie not an idiot. I understand the difference between a little crackle and pop and distortion.

 

[markb84]

Seriously, a well sorted vinyl rig has a noise floor that is all but inaudible and has tone, timing and dynamics that leave CD whimpering in the corner.

I can agree with this completely. At the Hi-fi shop I once demoed the top of the range CD vs. Vinyl and the Vinyl won hands down.

System was:

Kef reference 4~2 speakers, Bi-amped with 4 x Linn Klimax Mono power amps, Lexicon MC12B using balanced inputs and outputs (client already had a full surround system with MC12B and Kef reference speakers but was looking to add both CD and LP to it.)

CD source was Linn CD12 (which retails for $20,000)
Vinyl Source Was Linn LP12 Sondek Valhalla with Ekos arm (can't remember the MC catridge)

I was blown away by the LP12, we played the same music through both; saint saens for the deep organ and then some blues music that the client brought with him. The difference was night and day, even with the CD12 which puts pretty much every CD player ever made to shame the LP12 sounded clear and natural with unlimited headroom, don't get me wrong, the CD12 sounded bloody good but I don't think I've ever heard such a great comparison between the 2 formats.

Unfortunately playing with such great kit all the time tainted me for life and I'm never happy with any setup I have at home :Cry:

 

[tubby74]

I really have no idea about turntables, except that I'd get 2x sl1200s if I could afford to.

Are you after tt's for playback or listening? 1200s cost a fortune now they are discontinued. Other options would include the super OEM models, they came out in a few brands. Most common here are the American audio htd4.5 and Stanton st150. I managed to get a paid of the htd's for 250, one needs a new tonearm. Keep an eye on eBay they go very cheaply.
If just for listening, don't pay for dj robustness, keep an eye out for a rega or project debut for that budget or a bit over

Main system I run rotel components, rcd1072 CD player, ra1070 pre and rb1080 power amp with revel f12 speakers. Also a Squeezebox 3 which is the most used source with flac.
Dj setup is 2 1200s plus one htd and behrnger truth monitors. Would love to run it into main setup but all the gear would fail the WAF in the living room, let alone the vinyl collection

 

[Matt H]

Are you after tt's for playback or listening?

Both, kinda. I have a pretty strong interest in dj'ing and have fucked around with dj software for a while, so even though I'll only be getting one tt for the time being, there's a future chance I might be interested in getting a hardware mixer, a second deck and playing either vinyl or doing a serato setup. So yeah, I'm really a bit undecided. I'm also a broke ass student so budget constraints are a pretty big factor. If I can be convinced to spend a bit more I might just save a bit longer.

The LP-120 that ljohn posted looks like it could be a pretty good buy, considering what I'm after.

 

[tubby74]

Its a pretty clear divide in tt's. Sure a 1200 can be made to sound good but its a high starting price. My advice is to just watch eBay and any 2nd hand stores. I got my 1200's for $550 for the pair, was just walking by cash converters one day, saw them and jumped on them. The 2nd pair was similar story, another pawn shop, half heartedly asked the price and were too good to pass up
Controllers can be another good way in, if you have a computer already its not too bad. I run a xone 4d as a mixer/ controller, if I am looping, sampling and generally messing with things I will use that mostly to control things, if I am just mixing tunes I'll play CD/vinyl or time code in traktor

 

[LJohn]

The LP-120 that ljohn posted looks like it could be a pretty good buy, considering what I'm after.

If you want to DJ, I can say these decks feel great and work well. They're pretty blatant copies of the 1200s. I can also attest to mixing being more fun on proper decks.

BUT. If you ever want to do anything with DJing beyond bedroom stuff and maybe small parties, get some good digital controllers and push the boundaries. Beatmatching and track selection are now almost necessities. It's going to be more and more of crafting drum loops, snipping samples, cuejumping and unique sample selection. You can now literally play decks like an instrument in a brand new way. Good turntablists still blow my mind and there will always be a market for them, but the future is really in the future.

Damn you guys, I'm now wanting a Project Debut and some nice stereo speakers.

 

[Matt H]

So I got the LP120 deck, just for playback as of now, but the possibility of me getting another + a mixer in the future is pretty high. It sounded great up until I bent the stylus after dropping it onto the rim after a few too many beers, whoops. Got a new stylus on the way now. :very_drunk:

I've got a bit of birthday money kicking around now and I'm after a nice set of cans. Would prefer closed back (the missus always gets cranky when she hears headphone leak while we're studying in the same room, etc.), and although the idea of something reference class is appealing, I do listen to a lot of really bass heavy music. Budget is $300. I've been looking at the Audio-Technica ATH-A900X and Ultrasone HFi 780 so far, but I'm a bit overwhelmed for choice.

 

[LJohn]

I've got a bit of birthday money kicking around now and I'm after a nice set of cans. Would prefer closed back (the missus always gets cranky when she hears headphone leak while we're studying in the same room, etc.), and although the idea of something reference class is appealing, I do listen to a lot of really bass heavy music. Budget is $300. I've been looking at the Audio-Technica ATH-A900X and Ultrasone HFi 780 so far, but I'm a bit overwhelmed for choice.

Budget at least 1/3rd of that to an amp if you really want reference class. I have a pair of AD700s and, despite them being open, they sound great. I know a lot of the models in that series have a similarly subdued bass response and precise soundstage. You will get more bass with closed back though, with the loss of soundstage feel. Basically, closed backs always seem to sound like headphones from the pairs I've listened to.

What I did to choose a pair was walk into a headphone shop and tried a bunch of cans around my desired budget. Take music you know really well and listen to a full song or two for each pair. Just pick a pair which you enjoy. I personally wouldn't go for anything studio oriented for listening as they tend to have a really unflattering sound profile compared to dedicated hifi 'phones. But just try some. You're the one who knows what you like.

 

[Broken Bones89]

From my experience most home theaters come with fairly small guage speaker wire. Does using a heavier guage wire improve sound quality at all?

 

[freddofrog]

From my experience most home theaters come with fairly small guage speaker wire. Does using a heavier guage wire improve sound quality at all?

I've always used heavy-ish 8 gauge wire both for home and car hi-fi. However I'd hazard a guess that for most people including myself, if you interchanged "high end speaker cable" with generic oxygen free cable from Jaycar, you'd never pick the difference.

 

[markb84]

From my experience most home theaters come with fairly small guage speaker wire. Does using a heavier guage wire improve sound quality at all?

This comes down to a favourite saying of mine "You can't polish a turd"

If you're using shitty speakers and a shitty amplifier then it will make pretty much no difference, the noticeable differences with cables only really come into play when:
a) You're using top end kit (and I mean seriously top end)
b) Your cables are long

B is the most applicable to most people, even for digital (HDMI/Coax) quality makes a difference if the length is past a certain tollerance level. Therefore if your speakers are more than a few meters away from you amplifier, yes you may well notice that a better quality cable will reduce loss and potential interference.

Likewise if you are running your speaker/interconnect/ethernet cable alongside and parrallel to your power cables don't be suprised if the signal is affected, where possible signal and power should never run close and parallel.

The level of cable from which you will notice a difference again comes down to points a and b, if you have crappy speakers 20m away from your crappy amplifier then you most likely will not notice the difference between a $10p/m speaker cable and a $50p/m speaker cable. If your speakers and amplifier were high end there's a higher chance you'll notice the difference.

The general rule of thumb that's thrown around in the Hi-Fi world is to allow for 20% of your system cost for cables, which makes sense, the worthwhile maximum quality fo the cable is directly proportional to the quality of the equipment you are using.

 

[Broken Bones89]

This comes down to a favourite saying of mine "You can't polish a turd"

If you're using shitty speakers and a shitty amplifier then it will make pretty much no difference, the noticeable differences with cables only really come into play when:
a) You're using top end kit (and I mean seriously top end)
b) Your cables are long

B is the most applicable to most people, even for digital (HDMI/Coax) quality makes a difference if the length is past a certain tollerance level. Therefore if your speakers are more than a few meters away from you amplifier, yes you may well notice that a better quality cable will reduce loss and potential interference.

Likewise if you are running your speaker/interconnect/ethernet cable alongside and parrallel to your power cables don't be suprised if the signal is affected, where possible signal and power should never run close and parallel.

The level of cable from which you will notice a difference again comes down to points a and b, if you have crappy speakers 20m away from your crappy amplifier then you most likely will not notice the difference between a $10p/m speaker cable and a $50p/m speaker cable. If your speakers and amplifier were high end there's a higher chance you'll notice the difference.

The general rule of thumb that's thrown around in the Hi-Fi world is to allow for 20% of your system cost for cables, which makes sense, the worthwhile maximum quality fo the cable is directly proportional to the quality of the equipment you are using.

That pretty much makes sense. My system is one of those $1000 Sony jobbies with the massive subs and speakers that my mate bought about 4 years ago, I just bought it from him for $350 so I''m not going to complain, he lost the speaker wires about six months ago when he moved house and never bothered getting new ones so its just been sitting there. I need new cables so I'm chasing info on whether its worth putting a heavier gauge wire, these Sony systems aren't the greatest but they go well for what i want and for the price. So from what you're telling me it's not really worth forking out on expensive cable, is there anything i can do to squeeze a bit more sound quality out of it?
One day I'll own a 10 grand setup but for now the Sony will have to do.

 

[markb84]

So from what you're telling me it's not really worth forking out on expensive cable, is there anything i can do to squeeze a bit more sound quality out of it?
One day I'll own a 10 grand setup but for now the Sony will have to do.

If you have long runs of cable, it's worth looking at getting some reasonable OFC cable with a 20+ strand count.

As far as pushing more quality from the system the following applies.

Priority is your source (again you can't polish a turd), if your audio source is better than your amplifier you know that the amplifier is getting the best input and therefore will be producing the best output it is capable of. Therefore if you're running this setup for surround sound and are just using DVD, if you can step up to Blu-ray or a better DVD player and you'll be improving the input quality, if you're using a PC as the input ensure that you have a decent sound card and have outputs set to the best quality possible.

Next is the amplifier, if you're using multichannel then the channel levels and delays need to be set correctly, this means using a sound pressure meter, running the test tones and adjusting the speaker levels until they are all the same from your primary listening position, some amplifiers offer EQ as well, if this has been previously set it may be worth putting everything back to default to avoid incorrect settings ruining your experience. As a general rule 'dead' rooms (rooms without audio reflection, usually lots of soft surfaces, thick curtains, etc) need high end and upper mid added to the EQ whereas 'lively' rooms require a reduction in high end and upper mid. Bass is a bit more tricky to generalise. Also chose your processing format carefully, THX post processing for instance sounds crap unless your system is setup and specced in an exact way, therefore use the standard Dolby PL2 or DTS Neo:6, a lot of people prefer the sound of DTS as it adds more to the LFE channel.

Basically work out what settings you have at your disposal and learn what they do, then play around until you have something that sounds good to you.

 

[FR Drew]

brain full of solder fumes

Well...

The last week or so has seen a flurry of electronics work at Chez Drew.

Depending on my desired level of safety I"m 2 hours or 2 weeks away from having my new tube amplifier finished.

I think tonight I"ll cobble up a "deathtrap" version of it with the power supply (300v DC and 6.3v AC heaters) on an open board that will at least allow me to listen to the thing.

Then I'll know if it works or if I"ve screwed something up.

As far as the main circuit goes, only the heater wiring still to do...

On the PSU, I've got five transformers and one choke coil plus two big caps to solder up.

This could be the heaviest way anyone has ever attempted to produce 6 watts...

I really hope the sound is worth it...

 

[Broken Bones89]

Well...

The last week or so has seen a flurry of electronics work at Chez Drew.

Depending on my desired level of safety I"m 2 hours or 2 weeks away from having my new tube amplifier finished.

I think tonight I"ll cobble up a "deathtrap" version of it with the power supply (300v DC and 6.3v AC heaters) on an open board that will at least allow me to listen to the thing.

Then I'll know if it works or if I"ve screwed something up.

As far as the main circuit goes, only the heater wiring still to do...

On the PSU, I've got five transformers and one choke coil plus two big caps to solder up.

This could be the heaviest way anyone has ever attempted to produce 6 watts...

I really hope the sound is worth it...

[video=youtube;-39YNLSeD-g]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-39YNLSeD-g[/video]
As long as you warm those babies up good and proper you should be fine.

 

[MARKL]

I am digging I know but as of yesterday my 'stereo' is complete*. The oldest components in the system I bought back in 98, so this system has taken a little while to put together...surely outweighs the gravedig.

Main speakers - Polk Audio RT1000 (1998)
Rear Speakers - Polk Audio RT400 (2001)
TV - 55 LG 3D - (2011)
Blu Ray -LG 3D (2011)
Amp - Yamaha aventage 3000 (2011)
Center speaker - Polk Audio CS400 (2012)
And finally a sub....Paradigm Sub 15

Remote runs off my ipad and has a iPod in the system with about 6000 songs lol.

The system has had a heap of different components in it at different times but now finally complete...and worth the wait.

* complete doesn't rule out future upgrades