The election thread - Will the new PM last a full term - who will you futilely vote for?

Who will you vote for?

  • Liberals

    Votes: 14 17.9%
  • Labor

    Votes: 32 41.0%
  • Nationals

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Greens

    Votes: 19 24.4%
  • Independant

    Votes: 4 5.1%
  • The Reason Party

    Votes: 4 5.1%
  • Shooters and Fishers Party

    Votes: 2 2.6%
  • One Nation

    Votes: 1 1.3%
  • Donkey/Invalid vote

    Votes: 2 2.6%

  • Total voters
    78

danv

Likes Dirt
S. Just look at all the countries that HAVE been attacked by islamic terrorists since S/11 and those who haven't. Spain, USA, Aus (if you count what has happened in Indonesia a few days ago and in 2002) have been attacked, but look at countrys like Canada and NZ. Compare Canada to the USA, and compare NZ to Australia (admittedly its alot smaller, and less significant, but that factor aside).

And also, what do people think about saying WHO you voted for (in this pole). Only if you wish to. I think it would be interesting...
 

Daver

Kung Fu Panda
The terrorist attacks were always on the cards- they have been oppressed by the US and hence their resent. Our foreign policy has not bought the attacks onto us, purely because Australia doesn't have the power to fashion the change.

Also remember that a vote for the Greens will end up as a vote for Labor.
 

FR Drew

Not a custom title.
Be really suprised if I don't vote labor with Labor or Green for Senate.

I'm 32 now and that means that I can remember the days of Fraser, Hawke, Keating and Howard. I can also remember Peacock, Howard, Hewson, Downer, Beazley, Crean and Latham being in opposition.

All we ever hear from Howard is 2 lines:

Labor gave you foreign debt and high interest rates in the 80's. Do you want that again?

and

Labor is pro Saddam and they wish he was still in power.

Rant 1 is partially true (that's doing well if you're Howard!) Yes, Australia had high interest rates and foreign debt in the 80s. You be the judge, was it because we had a liberal (small L) Labor govt at the time? America and the UK had the conservative governments of Thatcher and Reagan at the same time and gee whiz, they had high interest rates and debt levels too. Maybe it was a global economic condition and not the result of a government running what in international finaces is a pretty pissant economy of 18 or so million inhabitants.

As far as Rant 2 goes. I think Saddam's family is pro Saddam. America *was* pro Saddam when he was fighting Iran (who currently still do alot to support fundamentalist Islamic terrorists). The point was not, is not and never should be "are you pro Saddam?" the point was "Is it justified to go outside the united nations to declare war on a soverign government without international support purely because it suits your national goals?"
As a general rule, the answer to that last question is NO.

No-one is arguing that Saddam is/was a friendly guy, or even someone who should be in power. He and his cronies were responsible for committing countless atrocities, sure but that doesn't give folks the right to just march in and bomb the place.

Hell, if that was all the justification to flatten a country that you needed, the US would have been in the sights a helluva long time before the Twin Towers got hit.

Having disposed of the two Howard catch cries for the hollow BS they are, take a look at the guys track record:

"We need to keep the kind of people who would throw their own children overboard out of our country."

"I'll never ever bring in a GST" (nice one John)

"Oh that election promise wasn't a core promise" (nice one John)

Healthcare (if the money spent lining the pockets of the private health funds was put back into Medicare, we wouldn't need private health funds)

Higher education funding

Lowering the unemployment rate, (not by creating jobs, but by making people ineleigible to appear in the statisitics by putting them onto disability allowances, cancelling their jobsearch etc)

Foreign policy (how to piss off your neighbours and make your contry a target 101) Just the other day, one of the smaller asia/pacific countries was about to expel a couple of Australian Federal Police agents because they had suspicions of them being spies. Alexander Downer's official response on Radio National was:
"We'll need to review our foreign aid in light of this. Australia and alot of our allies donate alot to helping that country. If we're not welcome we might just stop our support"
How cool is that? A foreign minister who's first step in diplomacy is blackmail with the threat of witholding financial support. Downer's working to get us just as hated as the US. Nice one Alex.

Give to the rich, tax the poor, make them pay for schooling, childcare, medical support but pump some extra money into mining for coal, burning oil (and stop those bloody east timorese getting any of the profits from their own gas reserves while we're at it, it's ours, we stole it and we've got a bigger armed force and if you don't let us have it we'll throw you back to the indonesians).

Yeah, if you go to a private school, your family's rich and stay that way by paying their workers minimum wage and you want to keep Australia white and burning oil so that your grandchildren's future is rooted then why not vote Liberal?

If you think that possibly the people doing the actual work might want a little support then maybe some other option would be good.

My wife and I both earn pretty well, we've got it good, we're buying our house and the low interest rates are good but hell, I started out as an apprentice electrician covered in grease and crap. I know what it's like to be earning stuff all, to have to take the shot at being unemployed for 3 years so you can go to uni, to build up a huge HECS debt that takes you nearly a decade to pay off if you're lucky enough to get a good job.

The way I figure it, I reaped the benefits of government funding, why the hell shouldn't I pay to support those with a little less oppourtunity. If I'd had a wife and kids to support I couldn't have gone to uni. Uni's not just for the Saints and Kings kiddies whose daddys buy then a BMW for their 17th birthday and who'll end up in the family law firm you know. The system got me where I am, therefore I should support the system.

Personally, I say we should be paying more tax and making more services free.


My second reaction to the S11 attack was "That's abhorrent and tragic and terrible. How disgusting and wrong!"

My first was "Oh well, the US had it coming sooner or later."

No one is saying that S11 was right, justified, should be commended or anything else. That said, take a look at the number of countries the US has invaded, bankrupted, supported terrorists and insurgents within, bombed, exploited etc etc etc over the last 50 years and see how substantialy 3000 folks in the Twin Towers stack up on the ledger.

Bah, like my rant will make a difference! I know stacks of educated folks with brains in their heads who didn't vote Labor last election cos Beazley was fat! How sad is it when a nation's politics is decided by crap like that?
 

danv

Likes Dirt
Daver said:
Also remember that a vote for the Greens will end up as a vote for Labor.
Don't generalise! :evil: :wink:

A vote for greens is a vote for the greens, and if you choose the greens' automatic preferences, then Labor will get second preference. If you do your own preferences, you can choose who ever you want.

If people don't know what we're talking about, when you vote you have to order the different parties from highest preference to lowest preference, and the major parties do their own preference list, which you can choose to follow, if you can't be bothered choosing all your own.
 

S.

ex offender
wombat said:
S. said:
The Americans hadn't done anything specifically to provoke terrorists killing thousands of innocent civilians
Oh mate come on; I know you're smrater than that, and you should understand the reason behind the groups which are targeting the US. It may not be justified, but it wasn't just a matter of "hmm, who should we attack *spin the globe and stick your finger on a country*....ok, them!".
If you read what I said, it wasn't quite what you said I said ;)

The Americans conduct themselves in their own manner, bombing countries here and there, blah blah. At no time (that I'm aware of) did they decide "let's concentrate on killing Muslims" (because if they did, you can imagine what would happen, internally and externally). FWIK, the Americans weren't even aware that there WAS such a large threat, likely to attack on that kind of scale. The Americans, without any large single factor (which is why I believe it's just their usual actions, yes, which include wars/"peacekeeping" on a disturbingly regular basis) somehow pissed the terrorists off enough to cause them to attack the US directly. It's pretty hard to put a finger on *why* the terrorists act like they do; they don't seem to make any demands or claim any kind of justification other than religious reasons (not to say there aren't any, just that they don't publicly mention them). Due to this, and our strong bond(age :p) to the US, our relatively similar lifestyles and generally arrogant attitude, I don't believe we would have been ignored by the terrorist groups forever.

Access: if I was going to opine one single factor, I'd say that it's probably because America tries to control everything (like everyone else tries to but doesn't have the power to pull off). Maybe if the terrorist groups would actually let us know WHY we're at war (other than "You're our enemy!" from them and "You attacked us!" from us), it'd make more sense.

Anyway, I'm gonna shut my uneducated mouth here, cos I can see that I'm gonna get shut down no matter where I go... ;)
 

danv

Likes Dirt
Did anyone catch the debate on 60minutes tonight?
Thoughts?

I thought Latham peformed quite well, in terms of what he probably set out to do, and Howard seemed a little weak, yet still fairly solid. However my opinions haven't changed at all, except to say that Latham probably won a small number of votes.
 

Access

Cannon Fodder
The Americans conduct themselves in their own manner, bombing countries here and there, blah blah. At no time (that I'm aware of) did they decide "let's concentrate on killing Muslims" (because if they did, you can imagine what would happen, internally and externally)
The US has defintely not concentrated on killing Muslims but certainly actively exploiting Muslim Countries, the US has been exploiting povety stricken nations nigh on 385 years going right back to 1619 when Africans were kidnapped and entered into Slavery in the US.

Of course, most Western Countries at that time were just as bad if not worse. However even after the US constitution was written outlawing slavery the exploitation of non-white countries was very consistent. Forcing countries to grow rubber trees and selling them cheap to the US instead of grain and other benefitial resources. Most of the soil in these countries was not capable of sustaining Rubber plants ruining the soil for generations (even to this day). This started the downwards spiral of povety in many countries.


The Americans weren't even aware that there WAS such a large threat, likely to attack on that kind of scale
You appear to be a little misinformed. The first attack by Bin Laden on the WTC in 1993 sort of gave away Alkada's plan. In August 6, 2001 George Bush was given a report called "Bin Ladin Determined to Strike Inside US". The US were very aware of Bin Ladin's movements, and even describing in it "Bin Laden want(s) to hijack a US aircraft to gain the release of Blind Shaykh, Umar 'Abd al-Rahman".

See their is a public misconception of Alkada, most people consider Alkada to of started on S-11. But in reality S-11 signified the end of Alkada. Bin Laden had been planning for years on the attack and had set up many groups of Alkada all over the world to act independantly. Bin Laden controlled Alkada centrally up until S-11 which was the signal for all the other groups to set their plans into action. In the defence of the US for not capturing Bin Laden yet, taking him down now wouldn't stop anything (except bring him to justice which is very worth while reason), all the other terroist groups are acting independantly now.


It's pretty hard to put a finger on *why* the terrorists act like they do; they don't seem to make any demands or claim any kind of justification other than religious reasons (not to say there aren't any, just that they don't publicly mention them)
Once again, your mistaken, Terroirst groups always have a full set of justifications which in most cases are publically availible, despite the media's lack of attention to them. "Because their Jealous" is what the the media believes the US people generally want to hear. I myself have a little more faith in the US people.

You will find in some countries joining terroirst groups is like applying for any other job. I have heard several first hand accounts of people who were at Australian Universities - no doubt the following story holds true for any other Western country.

As most people should be aware of, straight after S-11 Australia got very strict on allowing Middle Eastern people VISA's, so many people who were currently enrolled in Degrees who needed to re-register their VISA for the final half were denied and sent back home. Of course for many families this was a huge disgrace, and since International students (as they should) pay Full Fees at University, many families were out of pocket some 10's of thousands of dollars.

Many of these people were forced to look for work in their area with a partially completed degree, and some were forced to work for Terrorist groups because their was no alternative jobs on offer, they needed them to survive. I find it quite ironic that the US and Australia were forcing out internationals based on race because of the fear of domestic terroirsm which resulted in a huge spike in Terroist recruits. :)


...our strong bond(age Razz) to the US, our relatively similar lifestyles and generally arrogant attitude, I don't believe we would have been ignored by the terrorist groups forever.
I whole heartedly agree S, Australia has always been a Terrorist target. Of course Howard being a "yesman" to the US Government hasn't improved the situation. Straight after S-11 statements were made from international figure heads all over the world, some insuinated they had it coming, some said they give their sympathy and will consider lending their support if the US requests it. Australia (namely John Howard) was the only country to offer the US Government a 100% commitment on whatever they decided. Unconditional support, a blank cheque if you will.

Blind allegiance to a single country may strengthen the link between them but will weaken the link with every other country. Especially locally, Indoensia, East Timor and many other countries are furious with Australia.
During the Iraq war the Australain Government took the oportunity while the Media and the populance were distracted to demand East Timor (a country we helped prevent a coop back in 1997 or 1998) for payment for helping them out. The Government wanted control of a section of the East Timor Ocean which had an off-shore Oil drilling site. For a while East Timor and Alexander Downer (our foreign Minister) were "not on speaking terms" as the media put it. I hope everyone enjoyed the lowered prices of Petrol in Australia towards the end of the Iraq war. :)

As you mentioned above S, Australia IS a target, we need to focus heavily on trade with Asia and deal with the terrorist groups in Asia. Being a "yesman" to the US Government hasnt helped Australia at all. Americas Gross National Profit (GNP) is made up of 0.01% by goods sold to Australia whereas something like 30% of Australias GNP is made from selling goods to the US, so trade with us is meaingless to them, so they tend to minipulate us for their own ends. Australia has generally had a strong leader who stands up to the International Community. From memory Howard is the only Prime Minister Australia has ever had that kisses so much Brtish and US arse.

In fact most US-Australian joint military actions has little Australian involvement. Take Iraq for example, only 120 Australian Soliders are over their and that number has been very constant over the entire war. All this from the Labor and Liberal Party bickering about pulling out soliders by Christmas or keeping them their until the job is done all hinges on only 120 soliders! Its all smoke and mirrors. The 120 soliders is more symbolic, what the arguement is really about is whether Australia continually supports the US's aggresive foreign policy.

You would expect at least some economic benefit from helping the US and I am sure George W. Bush promised that to John Howard on one of his US trips however we got royally screwed with the Free Trade Agreement, which I am surprised Howard as much as it did the rest of the country. Sadly however both Labor and Liberal agreed on it, except Labor demanded a few changes that would lesson the amount of control the US's had in Australia before they would pass it.


If I was going to opine one single factor, I'd say that it's probably because America tries to control everything (like everyone else tries to but doesn't have the power to pull off).
You must excuse me, it was a bit simplistic of me to presume you would believe their was one defining reason for S-11 and any other Terrorist group. While most terrorist groups have quite specific demands and justfications each member of a Terroirst group joined for a specific personal reason (not including the ones who joined due to conveience as I descibe a couple of paragraphs above).

Of course as you said "[US starts] wars/"peacekeeping" on a disturbingly regular basis" which is very true. But that is a simplistic approach. Excuse me for a moment while I indulge myself with a quick crash course on only a very of the US's actions which have affected other Countries.

Of course their are the obvious influences with Iraq and Iran.
In 1980 the US Government provided billions in training and weapons to Saddam as long as he uses them to kill Irans. In that same year Saddam was given the Key to the City of Detriot and was regarded as a National Hero in the US.

In 1983 the US Government double crosses Saddam and provides weapons to Iran to kill Iraqs and Saddam. (Much like the US involvement in WWII and WWI selling weapons and resources to both sides to make a profit, until Britain forced embargoes on Germany and it's allies.)

In 1990 Iraq invades Kuwait with Weapons from the US. Which understandably had to be stopped. But supporting Saddam in the first place and then double crossing him, is not smart.

1991 The US falsifies Iraq testinonials about the conditions in Iraq, and tells the World he "Gasses his own people", which of course was false. They were Kurd's who just by chance after the redrawing of the map (by the US) after WW2 didnt get a country, so lived within Iraq. So while technically they lived within Iraq they identified themselves as Kurds. Still Iraq wasn't being very nice and had to be stopped, however large amounts of lies and exaggeration were used by the US to do so. The US Invades Iraq which the UN approved, and reinstates the Dictator of Kuwait and leaves Saddam in power.

1992 Sactions were placed on Iraq which tightly controlled exports and inports. Weekly bombing runs start on "Key targets" of Iraq devestating the land many missed their targets and many of the Targets were innocent such as the well documented Aspirin Factory target. (During the recent Iraq war, many of the Bombs even missed Iraq completely and hit Iran and Turkey, God damn!) Some Medical supplies were prevented from getting to Iraq because they included chemicals that potentially could be turned into weapons. Food was tightly regualted so delays were quite long and many people starved. The UN estimates that 500,000 Iraqi Children died from bombing and Sanctions. In 2001 US Secretary Powel said their were no weapons in Iraq. Chemical weapons have an expirory date of around 10 years, the US provided Iraq with the means to produce chemical weapons in 1980. Sanctions were very stricked and prevented Iraq from acquiring any Weapons.

Most of these actions just hurt innocent civilians and pissed off a lot of people. Iraq has been fighting Iran for 100's of years and have gotten know where. It is insane to believe that either country is a threat to anyone else. America made itself a target by involving itself and funding one side... then to make matters worse funded the other side. But once again that primarily pisses of people in power, the majority of people in those countries are angry at the US for more personal reasons, their the ones who start terrorist groups, never the countries leaders. World leaders rarely need Terrorist groups. In fact I believe in recent history the US is the only world power who uses Terrorst groups to achieve their goals so as to have no offical involvement and project an innocent image, most countries like Russia or China dont bother.

I mean Bin Laden and fellow Terrorists were given over 3 billion dollars by the US to attack the Soviets (which the US reffered to as "Dirty Commies" at the time). Of course after the collpase of the Soviet Union, Russia offered to destroy all their nuclear weapons if the US did, of course the US declined the offer. (Which was rather silly, I mean America still has the firepoower to destory the world one million times over, what different does it make to have Nuclear weapons destroy it a billion times over?) .

What creates terroirsm is much more personal. After the US invaded the Philippines it took nearly 100 years before it recovered and became stabalised, same applies to Afganistan now despite the US assisting in the rebuilding of the capital warlords still run the outer areas inflicting far more oppresition and torture then ever before.

Granted, in about 100 years Afganistan will be better off. Same with Iraq, the capital will eventually be kept under control using a pseudo democratic-martial law with the outer areas being led by which ever group of militant warlords manage to gain power.

Despite this, anti US sediment will grow within these countries. Additionally whether or not its the American governments fault it gets blamed for the damage the American Corporations and the negative ramifications of captialism inflicted on their country.

A simple study of Anthropology brings many examples to light (or even a proper study of Capitalism). One such case study springs to mind a few years ago when a major US company produced a "milk powder" which advertised in poverty striken countries with these big fat plump babies the advertisement simply described "Just Add Water to Produce Babies Like These".

The company even ran a special offer "First Two Months Free!", so their were swarms of people wanting to get their free milk powder. The "evilness" of the American Corporation soon become apparant. The problem was after two months babies mothers stopped producing their breast milk (as the corporations expected), so families went poor because they spent their weeks earnings on this rediculous overpriced milk powder. Many couldn't afford it, and hundreds of babies died because of it, and many siblings died because they were being underfed because most of the money was spend on the powder. Obviously this was intentional by the corporation to exploit povety stricken nations.

While the American government isnt to blame for the above action (a closer eye and tighter regulations and accountability on US international business' would be nice though) many of the people in poverty striken country blamed America for it. A proper study of capitalism really reveals how Western Corporations have been exploiting countries for years. Their are literally millions of examples of the problems with capitalism on poverty striken countries. Australia, Britain and the US are rich countries because we live off the back off weaker nations, from 11cent an hour Nike Factory workers in China to exporting radiactively contaminated rice to India. The US turns a blind eye to this, and even encourages it in many ways. The average person in these poverty striken countries despises the US for the hardships in their life.

This is one example, but over the years thousands of companies have and still today exploit povety stricken nations, burning a hatred for the US into every single new born child. If I lived in a poverty stricken country, growing up the way many have, I would probbaly be very angry at the US as well. I can very much sympathise.

Even when the US in the past has tried to help, such as when food was being supplied for free or VERY low cost to poverty stricken nations helping many many people. The shops in those areas could not compete with the free supplies the US provided. Many, many food suppliers and farms closed down. The countries became dependant on the handouts and made matters worse for generations. Granted this doesnt take place any more but those farmers and shop keepers would all learn a hatred for the US. Also when the handouts from the US stopped, I am sure all the starving people blamed the US also.

None of this was expected - in this case the US was only trying to help but didnt understand the reprocussions. We know better now. But the damage was done.

As mentioned earlier the US has be known to pressure nations into doing what they want such as planting rubber trees on inappropriate soil. Even now soil in many of these areas is totally destroyed and cannot be used to farm anything useful (thank God for genetically modified crops, which is only now allowing crops on some of this soil saving 100's of millions of lives each day). Their countries all develop hatred towards the US, some of it is justified, much of it is not. Many countries have had generations of knowing that US involvement has always led to suffering.

As mentioned earlier sanctions on Iraq and other countries punished the civilians more than the leader and the military. Many starved while the standard of living in Iraq spiralled downwards. Those people dying and hurting from the sanctions all blamed the US.

Every country American has been involved in has left a military pressence. Even in Australia their are US Bases. Its very unrestful for the locals especially when they consider the US to be their enemies.

I am sure America has done many many things to many many countries, some are documented some are not. I hope I dont need to list pages and pages of examples of how the US has hurt the people of other countries throughout the world. Americas aggresive foreign policy of invading other nations is just the tip of the ice berg of what pisses off the people around the world.

Their are literally millions of negative things over the past 200 years that has been inflicted upon many of these nations some intentional, some not, some because of corporations some not, some because they wanted to help, some not. But they result in the people hating the US. It becomes a target for all their hatred, much like Bin Laden was after S11 for the US and much like Saddam is now and much like the Japanese did after Pearl Harbor and much like Communism did during the cold war.

Pretend your a child in Iraq, hundreds of things have happend to you and your family. You have heard and seen many examples of actions done by the US that have led to suffering in your country, some true some exagerated.

Picture, your older sister has died because of the (US blamed) sanctions and starvation, your mother has died because she required some medicine that wasnt allowed into Iraq because of the sanctions.

Most of the time the streets of Iraq are quiet however the weekly US bombings scare you, and many of your friends at school have died in several of the blasts. One day you hear America has declared war on Iraq (again), you feel like their declaring war against you! Suddenly bombs are dropping continually killing your friends (other children) and their mothers. Your big brothers wedding is totally destoryed killing him, and injuring most of your family and friends. Your uncle working at the Aspirin factory gets bombed because it was thought to be harbouring WMD's.

Sure you dont like Saddam, but thats not an issue now, you hate whats happening here - now, and if I was that child. I would probably blame the US too.

After seeing your father and his friend's grab weapons trying to defend their home. Your father goes into battle and is killed. You see soliders running through the streets killing civilians.

Later you hear of US soliders mocking Iraquis sexually by taking turns touching their penis or the now infamous nude pyramid, you cant see their faces but you belief that this is how your fathers body is being treated.

You see on the television a man known to you as the American president saying "where going to smoke them out of their holes", and that "God is on our side" you feel anger towards him and his country.

As you can see the above doesnt set a very pretty picture. This gungho approach to the Gulf Wars by the US hasnt helped either.

While the above example is not fair on the US it does portray how some if not most people in Iraq see it. And thats what matters, this is why terroists bomb the US. The US policy has been to spank every rogue country that they cant benefit from (whether democratic countries or not). This will only inspire more people to attack the US.

Whether people believe George W. Bush went into Iraq for the good of Iraq or for the good of America, or whether he was just after the second largest oil supply in the world, it wont change the fact, most countries dispised the US before the Iraq war and invading them has done nothing but esculate this hatred. One must understand what it must feel like to be invaded. To paraphrase George W. Bush "Of course their mad, I wouldnt like to be invaded either".



Maybe if the terrorist groups would actually let us know WHY we're at war (other than "You're our enemy!" from them and "You attacked us!" from us), it'd make more sense.
Once again blame the media and US Government, most Terrorist organisations have done their best to make their reasoning known, its the media who keeps editing their message(s) to make them seem (more) mad. I am sure the translations into English (which are done by Americans) make them seem (even more) agressive. Dont forget America pulls the religious card as much as any Terrorist group does. George "God is not Nuetral on this topic" Bush on many occastions has refferenced that God is on his side.

But even still to understand the motivations of Terrorist Groups is a long complex problem. Their is a Terrorist Research group at Monash University that are delving deeper into this, and I am continually interested in their unbias progress unlike that silly "independant" 9/11 US Report written by 6 Democrats and 6 Republicans (independant my arse) which concludes in the poltically correct fashion that everyone is to blame a little.


Anyway, I'm gonna shut my uneducated mouth here, cos I can see that I'm gonna get shut down no matter where I go... Wink
Hey, thats what the Internet is about, chatting and learning from many people. You aren't uneducated if you know the limits of your knowledge. I myself am neither Left Wing nor Right, infact I dispise the Left Wing and I despise the Right Wing. I am very central. We all fit some where on the spectrum to a certain extent and have how opinions based on our stance.

I, as a centrist realise that we need a party like the Greens to keep the other parties in check, but I dread the day that they ever got in Power. I also understand that the Labor Government does generally represent the majority of the people, and that under a Labor govervnent they implemented things like University Hex, Free Secondary School's, Medicare, Free Hospitals, the Dole and all many other social services. However the Liberal Government being more business and money oriented and more about profit - boost our economy and other such things. I understand the need for all the parties, thats how a deomcracy works.

In Summary (to keep this on topic of the orginal post); Its all about balance, I see politics like a Pendulum swinging, it will swing left and Labor will institute all these fine social services and keep us pseudo profitable and raise our quality of life but will still waste a bit of money on said social services, then the Pendulum swings the other way and the Liberal Government will take away a few social services and funding from areas and use it to boost Australian business and will milk weaker countries for all their worth.

The Liberal Government have been in power for 12 years, Howard has been elected 3 times. Our economy is the best its been in a while, however Medicare, the Middle Class, Universities, High Schools and many others things have suffered major cut backs and some things are in major threat of dying. Its my opinion that the Liberals have done well economically but now the Pendulum has to swing back so Labor can fix the general standard of living within Australia... and so the cycle continues.
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bazza

look at me
biggest post EVER! if i could vote i would look at the independents in my area. see if they have anything to offer. and if all else fails go the greens. just because nature is pretty damn important. more important than developing a million missle silos around aus to stop big bad missles from hitting us. oh yeah latham won 'the worm' thingy at 67 to 33%. so maybe we might see a change of government after all.
 

parallax

Likes Dirt
Well so far the poll reads:
Labor 14% [ 7 ]
Liberal 24% [ 12 ]
The Democrats 8% [ 4 ]
The Greens 42% [ 21 ]
Independent (as in non-aligned individual) 4% [ 2 ]
Invalid (blank form or scribbled pesonal comment) 8% [ 4 ]
Nationals 0% [ 0 ]

So if current trends continue, atleast in the majority of youth voters out there the greens are in for a good chance. With Labor chasing up third. Which is a pity really - you'd think the contenders would atleast try and put some effort into winning to votes of the younger citizens. It just seems that stealing the other parties voters is enough. :(
 

S.

ex offender
Access said:
The Americans conduct themselves in their own manner, bombing countries here and there, blah blah. At no time (that I'm aware of) did they decide "let's concentrate on killing Muslims" (because if they did, you can imagine what would happen, internally and externally)
The US has defintely not concentrated on killing Muslims but certainly actively exploiting Muslim Countries, the US has been exploiting povety stricken nations nigh on 385 years going right back to 1619 when Africans were kidnapped and entered into Slavery in the US.

Of course, most Western Countries at that time were just as bad if not worse. However even after the US constitution was written outlawing slavery the exploitation of non-white countries was very consistent. Forcing countries to grow rubber trees and selling them cheap to the US instead of grain and other benefitial resources. Most of the soil in these countries was not capable of sustaining Rubber plants ruining the soil for generations (even to this day). This started the downwards spiral of povety in many countries.


The Americans weren't even aware that there WAS such a large threat, likely to attack on that kind of scale
You appear to be a little misinformed. The first attack by Bin Laden on the WTC in 1993 sort of gave away Alkada's plan. In August 6, 2001 George Bush was given a report called "Bin Ladin Determined to Strike Inside US". The US were very aware of Bin Ladin's movements, and even describing in it "Bin Laden want(s) to hijack a US aircraft to gain the release of Blind Shaykh, Umar 'Abd al-Rahman".

See their is a public misconception of Alkada, most people consider Alkada to of started on S-11. But in reality S-11 signified the end of Alkada. Bin Laden had been planning for years on the attack and had set up many groups of Alkada all over the world to act independantly. Bin Laden controlled Alkada centrally up until S-11 which was the signal for all the other groups to set their plans into action. In the defence of the US for not capturing Bin Laden yet, taking him down now wouldn't stop anything (except bring him to justice which is very worth while reason), all the other terroist groups are acting independantly now.


It's pretty hard to put a finger on *why* the terrorists act like they do; they don't seem to make any demands or claim any kind of justification other than religious reasons (not to say there aren't any, just that they don't publicly mention them)
Once again, your mistaken, Terroirst groups always have a full set of justifications which in most cases are publically availible, despite the media's lack of attention to them. "Because their Jealous" is what the the media believes the US people generally want to hear. I myself have a little more faith in the US people.

You will find in some countries joining terroirst groups is like applying for any other job. I have heard several first hand accounts of people who were at Australian Universities - no doubt the following story holds true for any other Western country.

As most people should be aware of, straight after S-11 Australia got very strict on allowing Middle Eastern people VISA's, so many people who were currently enrolled in Degrees who needed to re-register their VISA for the final half were denied and sent back home. Of course for many families this was a huge disgrace, and since International students (as they should) pay Full Fees at University, many families were out of pocket some 10's of thousands of dollars.

Many of these people were forced to look for work in their area with a partially completed degree, and some were forced to work for Terrorist groups because their was no alternative jobs on offer, they needed them to survive. I find it quite ironic that the US and Australia were forcing out internationals based on race because of the fear of domestic terroirsm which resulted in a huge spike in Terroist recruits. :)


...our strong bond(age Razz) to the US, our relatively similar lifestyles and generally arrogant attitude, I don't believe we would have been ignored by the terrorist groups forever.
I whole heartedly agree S, Australia has always been a Terrorist target. Of course Howard being a "yesman" to the US Government hasn't improved the situation. Straight after S-11 statements were made from international figure heads all over the world, some insuinated they had it coming, some said they give their sympathy and will consider lending their support if the US requests it. Australia (namely John Howard) was the only country to offer the US Government a 100% commitment on whatever they decided. Unconditional support, a blank cheque if you will.

Blind allegiance to a single country may strengthen the link between them but will weaken the link with every other country. Especially locally, Indoensia, East Timor and many other countries are furious with Australia.
During the Iraq war the Australain Government took the oportunity while the Media and the populance were distracted to demand East Timor (a country we helped prevent a coop back in 1997 or 1998) for payment for helping them out. The Government wanted control of a section of the East Timor Ocean which had an off-shore Oil drilling site. For a while East Timor and Alexander Downer (our foreign Minister) were "not on speaking terms" as the media put it. I hope everyone enjoyed the lowered prices of Petrol in Australia towards the end of the Iraq war. :)

As you mentioned above S, Australia IS a target, we need to focus heavily on trade with Asia and deal with the terrorist groups in Asia. Being a "yesman" to the US Government hasnt helped Australia at all. Americas Gross National Profit (GNP) is made up of 0.01% by goods sold to Australia whereas something like 30% of Australias GNP is made from selling goods to the US, so trade with us is meaingless to them, so they tend to minipulate us for their own ends. Australia has generally had a strong leader who stands up to the International Community. From memory Howard is the only Prime Minister Australia has ever had that kisses so much Brtish and US arse.

In fact most US-Australian joint military actions has little Australian involvement. Take Iraq for example, only 120 Australian Soliders are over their and that number has been very constant over the entire war. All this from the Labor and Liberal Party bickering about pulling out soliders by Christmas or keeping them their until the job is done all hinges on only 120 soliders! Its all smoke and mirrors. The 120 soliders is more symbolic, what the arguement is really about is whether Australia continually supports the US's aggresive foreign policy.

You would expect at least some economic benefit from helping the US and I am sure George W. Bush promised that to John Howard on one of his US trips however we got royally screwed with the Free Trade Agreement, which I am surprised Howard as much as it did the rest of the country. Sadly however both Labor and Liberal agreed on it, except Labor demanded a few changes that would lesson the amount of control the US's had in Australia before they would pass it.


If I was going to opine one single factor, I'd say that it's probably because America tries to control everything (like everyone else tries to but doesn't have the power to pull off).
You must excuse me, it was a bit simplistic of me to presume you would believe their was one defining reason for S-11 and any other Terrorist group. While most terrorist groups have quite specific demands and justfications each member of a Terroirst group joined for a specific personal reason (not including the ones who joined due to conveience as I descibe a couple of paragraphs above).

Of course as you said "[US starts] wars/"peacekeeping" on a disturbingly regular basis" which is very true. But that is a simplistic approach. Excuse me for a moment while I indulge myself with a quick crash course on only a very of the US's actions which have affected other Countries.

Of course their are the obvious influences with Iraq and Iran.
In 1980 the US Government provided billions in training and weapons to Saddam as long as he uses them to kill Irans. In that same year Saddam was given the Key to the City of Detriot and was regarded as a National Hero in the US.

In 1983 the US Government double crosses Saddam and provides weapons to Iran to kill Iraqs and Saddam. (Much like the US involvement in WWII and WWI selling weapons and resources to both sides to make a profit, until Britain forced embargoes on Germany and it's allies.)

In 1990 Iraq invades Kuwait with Weapons from the US. Which understandably had to be stopped. But supporting Saddam in the first place and then double crossing him, is not smart.

1991 The US falsifies Iraq testinonials about the conditions in Iraq, and tells the World he "Gasses his own people", which of course was false. They were Kurd's who just by chance after the redrawing of the map (by the US) after WW2 didnt get a country, so lived within Iraq. So while technically they lived within Iraq they identified themselves as Kurds. Still Iraq wasn't being very nice and had to be stopped, however large amounts of lies and exaggeration were used by the US to do so. The US Invades Iraq which the UN approved, and reinstates the Dictator of Kuwait and leaves Saddam in power.

1992 Sactions were placed on Iraq which tightly controlled exports and inports. Weekly bombing runs start on "Key targets" of Iraq devestating the land many missed their targets and many of the Targets were innocent such as the well documented Aspirin Factory target. (During the recent Iraq war, many of the Bombs even missed Iraq completely and hit Iran and Turkey, God damn!) Some Medical supplies were prevented from getting to Iraq because they included chemicals that potentially could be turned into weapons. Food was tightly regualted so delays were quite long and many people starved. The UN estimates that 500,000 Iraqi Children died from bombing and Sanctions. In 2001 US Secretary Powel said their were no weapons in Iraq. Chemical weapons have an expirory date of around 10 years, the US provided Iraq with the means to produce chemical weapons in 1980. Sanctions were very stricked and prevented Iraq from acquiring any Weapons.

Most of these actions just hurt innocent civilians and pissed off a lot of people. Iraq has been fighting Iran for 100's of years and have gotten know where. It is insane to believe that either country is a threat to anyone else. America made itself a target by involving itself and funding one side... then to make matters worse funded the other side. But once again that primarily pisses of people in power, the majority of people in those countries are angry at the US for more personal reasons, their the ones who start terrorist groups, never the countries leaders. World leaders rarely need Terrorist groups. In fact I believe in recent history the US is the only world power who uses Terrorst groups to achieve their goals so as to have no offical involvement and project an innocent image, most countries like Russia or China dont bother.

I mean Bin Laden and fellow Terrorists were given over 3 billion dollars by the US to attack the Soviets (which the US reffered to as "Dirty Commies" at the time). Of course after the collpase of the Soviet Union, Russia offered to destroy all their nuclear weapons if the US did, of course the US declined the offer. (Which was rather silly, I mean America still has the firepoower to destory the world one million times over, what different does it make to have Nuclear weapons destroy it a billion times over?) .

What creates terroirsm is much more personal. After the US invaded the Philippines it took nearly 100 years before it recovered and became stabalised, same applies to Afganistan now despite the US assisting in the rebuilding of the capital warlords still run the outer areas inflicting far more oppresition and torture then ever before.

Granted, in about 100 years Afganistan will be better off. Same with Iraq, the capital will eventually be kept under control using a pseudo democratic-martial law with the outer areas being led by which ever group of militant warlords manage to gain power.

Despite this, anti US sediment will grow within these countries. Additionally whether or not its the American governments fault it gets blamed for the damage the American Corporations and the negative ramifications of captialism inflicted on their country.

A simple study of Anthropology brings many examples to light (or even a proper study of Capitalism). One such case study springs to mind a few years ago when a major US company produced a "milk powder" which advertised in poverty striken countries with these big fat plump babies the advertisement simply described "Just Add Water to Produce Babies Like These".

The company even ran a special offer "First Two Months Free!", so their were swarms of people wanting to get their free milk powder. The "evilness" of the American Corporation soon become apparant. The problem was after two months babies mothers stopped producing their breast milk (as the corporations expected), so families went poor because they spent their weeks earnings on this rediculous overpriced milk powder. Many couldn't afford it, and hundreds of babies died because of it, and many siblings died because they were being underfed because most of the money was spend on the powder. Obviously this was intentional by the corporation to exploit povety stricken nations.

While the American government isnt to blame for the above action (a closer eye and tighter regulations and accountability on US international business' would be nice though) many of the people in poverty striken country blamed America for it. A proper study of capitalism really reveals how Western Corporations have been exploiting countries for years. Their are literally millions of examples of the problems with capitalism on poverty striken countries. Australia, Britain and the US are rich countries because we live off the back off weaker nations, from 11cent an hour Nike Factory workers in China to exporting radiactively contaminated rice to India. The US turns a blind eye to this, and even encourages it in many ways. The average person in these poverty striken countries despises the US for the hardships in their life.

This is one example, but over the years thousands of companies have and still today exploit povety stricken nations, burning a hatred for the US into every single new born child. If I lived in a poverty stricken country, growing up the way many have, I would probbaly be very angry at the US as well. I can very much sympathise.

Even when the US in the past has tried to help, such as when food was being supplied for free or VERY low cost to poverty stricken nations helping many many people. The shops in those areas could not compete with the free supplies the US provided. Many, many food suppliers and farms closed down. The countries became dependant on the handouts and made matters worse for generations. Granted this doesnt take place any more but those farmers and shop keepers would all learn a hatred for the US. Also when the handouts from the US stopped, I am sure all the starving people blamed the US also.

None of this was expected - in this case the US was only trying to help but didnt understand the reprocussions. We know better now. But the damage was done.

As mentioned earlier the US has be known to pressure nations into doing what they want such as planting rubber trees on inappropriate soil. Even now soil in many of these areas is totally destroyed and cannot be used to farm anything useful (thank God for genetically modified crops, which is only now allowing crops on some of this soil saving 100's of millions of lives each day). Their countries all develop hatred towards the US, some of it is justified, much of it is not. Many countries have had generations of knowing that US involvement has always led to suffering.

As mentioned earlier sanctions on Iraq and other countries punished the civilians more than the leader and the military. Many starved while the standard of living in Iraq spiralled downwards. Those people dying and hurting from the sanctions all blamed the US.

Every country American has been involved in has left a military pressence. Even in Australia their are US Bases. Its very unrestful for the locals especially when they consider the US to be their enemies.

I am sure America has done many many things to many many countries, some are documented some are not. I hope I dont need to list pages and pages of examples of how the US has hurt the people of other countries throughout the world. Americas aggresive foreign policy of invading other nations is just the tip of the ice berg of what pisses off the people around the world.

Their are literally millions of negative things over the past 200 years that has been inflicted upon many of these nations some intentional, some not, some because of corporations some not, some because they wanted to help, some not. But they result in the people hating the US. It becomes a target for all their hatred, much like Bin Laden was after S11 for the US and much like Saddam is now and much like the Japanese did after Pearl Harbor and much like Communism did during the cold war.

Pretend your a child in Iraq, hundreds of things have happend to you and your family. You have heard and seen many examples of actions done by the US that have led to suffering in your country, some true some exagerated.

Picture, your older sister has died because of the (US blamed) sanctions and starvation, your mother has died because she required some medicine that wasnt allowed into Iraq because of the sanctions.

Most of the time the streets of Iraq are quiet however the weekly US bombings scare you, and many of your friends at school have died in several of the blasts. One day you hear America has declared war on Iraq (again), you feel like their declaring war against you! Suddenly bombs are dropping continually killing your friends (other children) and their mothers. Your big brothers wedding is totally destoryed killing him, and injuring most of your family and friends. Your uncle working at the Aspirin factory gets bombed because it was thought to be harbouring WMD's.

Sure you dont like Saddam, but thats not an issue now, you hate whats happening here - now, and if I was that child. I would probably blame the US too.

After seeing your father and his friend's grab weapons trying to defend their home. Your father goes into battle and is killed. You see soliders running through the streets killing civilians.

Later you hear of US soliders mocking Iraquis sexually by taking turns touching their penis or the now infamous nude pyramid, you cant see their faces but you belief that this is how your fathers body is being treated.

You see on the television a man known to you as the American president saying "where going to smoke them out of their holes", and that "God is on our side" you feel anger towards him and his country.

As you can see the above doesnt set a very pretty picture. This gungho approach to the Gulf Wars by the US hasnt helped either.

While the above example is not fair on the US it does portray how some if not most people in Iraq see it. And thats what matters, this is why terroists bomb the US. The US policy has been to spank every rogue country that they cant benefit from (whether democratic countries or not). This will only inspire more people to attack the US.

Whether people believe George W. Bush went into Iraq for the good of Iraq or for the good of America, or whether he was just after the second largest oil supply in the world, it wont change the fact, most countries dispised the US before the Iraq war and invading them has done nothing but esculate this hatred. One must understand what it must feel like to be invaded. To paraphrase George W. Bush "Of course their mad, I wouldnt like to be invaded either".



Maybe if the terrorist groups would actually let us know WHY we're at war (other than "You're our enemy!" from them and "You attacked us!" from us), it'd make more sense.
Once again blame the media and US Government, most Terrorist organisations have done their best to make their reasoning known, its the media who keeps editing their message(s) to make them seem (more) mad. I am sure the translations into English (which are done by Americans) make them seem (even more) agressive. Dont forget America pulls the religious card as much as any Terrorist group does. George "God is not Nuetral on this topic" Bush on many occastions has refferenced that God is on his side.

But even still to understand the motivations of Terrorist Groups is a long complex problem. Their is a Terrorist Research group at Monash University that are delving deeper into this, and I am continually interested in their unbias progress unlike that silly "independant" 9/11 US Report written by 6 Democrats and 6 Republicans (independant my arse) which concludes in the poltically correct fashion that everyone is to blame a little.


Anyway, I'm gonna shut my uneducated mouth here, cos I can see that I'm gonna get shut down no matter where I go... Wink
Hey, thats what the Internet is about, chatting and learning from many people. You aren't uneducated if you know the limits of your knowledge. I myself am neither Left Wing nor Right, infact I dispise the Left Wing and I despise the Right Wing. I am very central. We all fit some where on the spectrum to a certain extent and have how opinions based on our stance.

I, as a centrist realise that we need a party like the Greens to keep the other parties in check, but I dread the day that they ever got in Power. I also understand that the Labor Government does generally represent the majority of the people, and that under a Labor govervnent they implemented things like University Hex, Free Secondary School's, Medicare, Free Hospitals, the Dole and all many other social services. However the Liberal Government being more business and money oriented and more about profit - boost our economy and other such things. I understand the need for all the parties, thats how a deomcracy works.

In Summary (to keep this on topic of the orginal post); Its all about balance, I see politics like a Pendulum swinging, it will swing left and Labor will institute all these fine social services and keep us pseudo profitable and raise our quality of life but will still waste a bit of money on said social services, then the Pendulum swings the other way and the Liberal Government will take away a few social services and funding from areas and use it to boost Australian business and will milk weaker countries for all their worth.

The Liberal Government have been in power for 12 years, Howard has been elected 3 times. Our economy is the best its been in a while, however Medicare, the Middle Class, Universities, High Schools and many others things have suffered major cut backs and some things are in major threat of dying. Its my opinion that the Liberals have done well economically but now the Pendulum has to swing back so Labor can fix the general standard of living within Australia... and so the cycle continues.
[/b]
Could you elaborate please?
 

johnny

I'll tells ya!
Staff member
S. said:
[Maybe if the terrorist groups would actually let us know WHY we're at war (other than "You're our enemy!" from them and "You attacked us!" from us), it'd make more sense.

;)
Here is exactly what you asked for and what Access had eluded to.
Bin Laden's statement in full
April 16, 2004 - 2:28PM


The following is the text of the tape as broadcast by al-Arabiya:

Praise be to Almighty God; Peace and prayers be upon our Prophet Muhammad, his family, and companions.

This is a message to our neighbours north of the Mediterranean, containing a reconciliation initiative as a response to their positive reactions.

Praise be to God; praise be to God; praise be to God who created heaven and earth with justice and who allowed the oppressed to punish the oppressor in the same way.

Peace upon those who followed the right path:

In my hands there is a message to remind you that justice is a duty towards those whom you love and those whom you do not. And people's rights will not be harmed if the opponent speaks out about them.

The greatest rule of safety is justice, and stopping injustice and aggression. It was said: Oppression kills the oppressors and the hotbed of injustice is evil. The situation in occupied Palestine is an example. What happened on 11 September [2001] and 11 March [the Madrid train bombings] is your commodity that was returned to you.

It is known that security is a pressing necessity for all mankind. We do not agree that you should monopolise it only for yourselves. Also, vigilant people do not allow their politicians to tamper with their security.

Having said this, we would like to inform you that labelling us and our acts as terrorism is also a description of you and of your acts. Reaction comes at the same level as the original action. Our acts are reaction to your own acts, which are represented by the destruction and killing of our kinfolk in Afghanistan, Iraq and Palestine.

The act that horrified the world; that is, the killing of the old, handicapped [Hamas spiritual leader] Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, may God have mercy on him, is sufficient evidence.

We pledge to God that we will punish America for him, God willing.

Which religion considers your killed ones innocent and our killed ones worthless? And which principle considers your blood real blood and our blood water? Reciprocal treatment is fair and the one who starts injustice bears greater blame.

As for your politicians and those who have followed their path, who insist on ignoring the real problem of occupying the entirety of Palestine and exaggerate lies and falsification regarding our right in defence and resistance, they do not respect themselves.

They also disdain the blood and minds of peoples. This is because their falsification increases the shedding of your blood instead of sparing it.

Moreover, the examining of the developments that have been taking place, in terms of killings in our countries and your countries, will make clear an important fact; namely, that injustice is inflicted on us and on you by your politicians, who send your sons - although you are opposed to this - to our countries to kill and be killed.

Therefore, it is in both sides' interest to curb the plans of those who shed the blood of peoples for their narrow personal interest and subservience to the White House gang.


We must take into consideration that this war brings billions of dollars in profit to the major companies, whether it be those that produce weapons or those that contribute to reconstruction, such as the Halliburton Company, its sisters and daughters.

Based on this, it is very clear who is the one benefiting from igniting this war and from the shedding of blood. It is the warlords, the bloodsuckers, who are steering the world policy from behind a curtain.

As for President Bush, the leaders who are revolving in his orbit, the leading media companies and the United Nations, which makes laws for relations between the masters of veto and the slaves of the General Assembly, these are only some of the tools used to deceive and exploit peoples.

All these pose a fatal threat to the whole world.

The Zionist lobby is one of the most dangerous and most difficult figures of this group. God willing, we are determined to fight them.

Based on the above, and in order to deny war merchants a chance and in response to the positive interaction shown by recent events and opinion polls, which indicate that most European peoples want peace, I ask honest people, especially ulema, preachers and merchants, to form a permanent committee to enlighten European peoples of the justice of our causes, above all Palestine. They can make use of the huge potential of the media.

I also offer a reconciliation initiative to them, whose essence is our commitment to stopping operations against every country that commits itself to not attacking Muslims or interfering in their affairs - including the US conspiracy on the greater Muslim world.

This reconciliation can be renewed once the period signed by the first government expires and a second government is formed with the consent of both parties.

The reconciliation will start with the departure of its last soldier from our country.
The door of reconciliation is open for three months of the date of announcing this statement.

For those who reject reconciliation and want war, we are ready.

As for those who want reconciliation, we have given them a chance. Stop shedding our blood so as to preserve your blood. It is in your hands to apply this easy, yet difficult, formula. You know that the situation will expand and increase if you delay things.

If this happens, do not blame us - blame yourselves.

A rational person does not relinquish his security, money and children to please the liar of the White House.

Had he been truthful about his claim for peace, he would not describe the person who ripped open pregnant women in Sabra and Shatila [reference to Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon] and the destroyer of the capitulation process [reference to the Palestinian-Israeli peace process] as a man of peace.

He also would not have lied to people and said that we hate freedom and kill for the sake of killing. Reality proves our truthfulness and his lie.

The killing of the Russians was after their invasion of Afghanistan and Chechnya; the killing of Europeans was after their invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan; and the killing of Americans on the day of New York [reference to 11 September] was after their support of the Jews in Palestine and their invasion of the Arabian Peninsula.

Also, killing them in Somalia was after their invasion of it in Operation Restore Hope. We made them leave without hope, praise be to God.

It is said that prevention is better than cure. A happy person is he who learns a lesson from the experience of others.

Heeding right is better than persisting in falsehood.

Peace be upon those who follow guidance.



First letter sent in 2002:


In the Name of Allah, the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful


Some American writers have published articles under the title ‘On what basis are we fighting?’ These articles have generated a number of responses, some of which adhered to the truth and were based on Islamic Law, and others which have not. Here we wanted to outline the truth – as an explanation and a warning – hoping for Allah’s reward, seeking success and support from Him. While seeking Allah’s help, we form our reply based on two questions directed
at the Americans:

Q1) Why are we fighting and opposing you?
Q2) What are we calling you to, and what do we want from you?

As for the first question: Why are we fighting and opposing you? The answer is very simple:

(1) Because you attacked us and continue to attack us.

a) You attacked us in Palestine:
i

- Palestine, which has sunk under military occupation for more than 80 years. The British handed over Palestine, with your help and your support, to the Jews, who have occupied it for more than 50 years; years overflowing with oppression, tyranny, crimes, killing, expulsion, destruction and devastation. The creation and continuation of Israel is one of the greatest crimes, and you are the leaders of its criminals. And of course there is no need to explain and prove the degree of American support for Israel. The creation of Israel is a crime which must be erased. Each and every person whose hands have become polluted in the contribution towards this crime must pay its price, and pay for it heavily.

ii- It brings us both laughter and tears to see that you have not yet tired of repeating your fabricated lies that the Jews have a historical right to Palestine, as it was promised to them in the Torah. Anyone who disputes with them on this alleged fact is accused of anti-semitism. This is one of the most fallacious, widely—circulated fabrications in history. The people of Palestine are pure Arabs and original Semites. It is the Muslims who are the inheritors of Moses (peace be upon him) and the inheritors of the real Torah that has not been changed. Muslims believe in all of the Prophets, including Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad, peace and blessings of Allah be upon them all. If the followers of Moses have been promised a right to Palestine in the Torah, then the Muslims are the most worthy nation of this.

When the Muslims conquered Palestine and drove out the Romans, Palestine and Jerusalem returned to Islaam, the religion of all the Prophets peace be upon them. Therefore, the call to a historical right to Palestine cannot be raised against the Islamic Ummah that believes in all the Prophets of Allah (peace and blessings be upon them) - and we make no distinction between them.

iii- The blood pouring out of Palestine must be equally revenged. You must know that the Palestinians do not cry alone; their women are not widowed alone; their sons are not orphaned alone.

b) You attacked us is Somalia; you supported the Russian atrocities against us in Chechnya, the Indian oppression against us in Kashmir, and the Jewish aggression against us in Lebanon.
c) Under your supervision, consent and orders, the governments of our countries which act as your agents, attack us on a daily basis;

i- These governments prevent our people from establishing the Islamic Shariah, using violence and lies to do so.

ii- These governments give us a taste of humiliation, and places us in a large prison of fear and sub dual.

iii- These governments steal our Ummah’s wealth and sell them to you at a paltry price.

iv- These governments have surrendered to the Jews, and handed them most of Palestine, acknowledging the existence their state over the dismembered limbs of their own people.

v- The removal of these governments is an obligation upon us, and a necessary step to free the Ummah, to make the Shariah the supreme law and to regain Palestine. And our fight against these governments is not separate from out fight against you.

d) You steal our wealth and oil at paltry prices because of you international influence and military threats. This theft is indeed the biggest theft ever witnessed by mankind in the history of the world.

e) Your forces occupy our countries; you spread your military bases throughout them; you corrupt our lands, and you besiege our sanctities, to protect the security of the Jews and to ensure the continuity of your pillage of our treasures.

f) You have starved the Muslims of Iraq, where children die every day. It is a wonder that more than 1.5 million Iraqi children have died as a result of your sanctions, and you did not show concern. Yet when 3000 of your people died, the entire world rises and has not yet sat down.

g) You have supported the Jews in their idea that Jerusalem is their eternal capital, and agreed to move your embassy there. With your help and under your protection, the Israelis are planning to destroy the Al-Aqsa mosque. Under the protection of your weapons, Sharon entered the Al-Aqsa mosque, to pollute it as a preparation to capture and destroy it.

(2) These tragedies and calamities are only a few examples of your oppression and aggression against us. It is commanded by our religion and intellect that the oppressed have a right to return the aggression. Do not await anything from us but Jihad, resistance and revenge. Is it in any way rational to expect that after America has attacked us for more than half a century, that we will then leave her to live in security and peace?!!

(3) You may then dispute that all the above does not justify aggression against civilians, for crimes they did not commit and offenses in which they did not partake:

a) This argument contradicts your continuous repetition that America is the land of freedom, and its leaders in this world. Therefore, the American people are the ones who choose their government by way of their own free will; a choice which stems from their agreement to its policies. Thus the American people have chosen, consented to, and affirmed their support for the Israeli oppression of the Palestinians, the occupation and usurpation of their land, and its continuous killing, torture, punishment and expulsion of the Palestinians. The American people have the ability and choice to refuse the policies of their Government and even to change it if they want.

b) The American people are the ones who pay the taxes which fund the planes that bomb us in Afghanistan, the tanks that strike and destroy our homes in Palestine, the armies which occupy our lands in the Arabian Gulf, and the fleets which ensure the blockade of Iraq. These tax dollars are given to Israel for it to continue to attack us and penetrate our lands. So the American people are the ones who fund the attacks against us, and they are the ones who oversee the expenditure of these monies in the way they wish, through their elected candidates.

c) Also the American army is part of the American people. It is this very same people who are shamelessly helping the Jews fight against us.
d) The American people are the ones who employ both their men and their women in the American Forces which attack us.

e) This is why the American people cannot be not innocent of all the crimes committed by the Americans and Jews against us.

f) Allah, the Almighty, legislated the permission and the option to take revenge. Thus, if we are attacked, then we have the right to attack back. Whoever has destroyed our villages and towns, then we have the right to destroy their villages and towns. Whoever has stolen our wealth, then we have the right to destroy their economy. And whoever has killed our civilians, then we have the right to kill theirs.

The American Government and press still refuses to answer the question:

Why did they attack us in New York and Washington? If Sharon is a man of peace in the eyes of Bush, then we are also men of peace!!! America does not understand the language of manners and principles, so we are addressing it using the language it understands.

As for the second question that we want to answer: What are we calling you to, and what do we want from you?

(1) The first thing that we are calling you to is Islam.

a) The religion of the Unification of God; of freedom from associating partners with Him, and rejection of this; of complete love of Him, the Exalted; of complete submission to His Laws; and of the discarding of all the opinions, orders, theories and religions which contradict with the religion He sent down to His Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). Islam is the religion of all the prophets, and makes no distinction between them – peace be upon them all.

It is to this religion that we call you; the seal of all the previous religions. It is the religion of Unification of God, sincerity, the best of manners, righteousness, mercy, honour, purity, and piety. It is the religion of showing kindness to others, establishing justice between them, granting them their rights, and defending the oppressed and the persecuted. It is the religion of enjoining the good and forbidding the evil with the hand, tongue and heart. It is the religion of Jihad in the way of Allah so that Allah’s Word and religion reign Supreme. And it is the religion of unity and agreement on the obedience to Allah, and total equality between all people, without regarding their colour, sex, or language.

b) It is the religion whose book – the Quran – will remained preserved and unchanged, after the other Divine books and messages have been changed. The Quran is the miracle until the Day of Judgment. Allah has challenged anyone to bring a book like the Quran or even ten verses like it.

(2) The second thing we call you to, is to stop your oppression, lies, immorality and debauchery that has spread among you.

a) We call you to be a people of manners, principles, honour, and purity; to reject the immoral acts of fornication, homosexuality, intoxicants, gambling's, and trading with interest.

We call you to all of this that you may be freed from that which you have become caught up in; that you may be freed from the deceptive lies that you are a great nation, that your leaders spread amongst you to conceal from you the despicable state to which you have reached.

b) It is saddening to tell you that you are the worst civilization witnessed by the history of mankind: (yeah thanks for that buddy :lol: I wish I lived in a civilisation that stoned women to death for re-marrying, having sex out of wedlock etc...dickhead!))

i- You are the nation who, rather than ruling by the Shariah of Allah in its Constitution and Laws, choose to invent your own laws as you will and desire. You separate religion from your policies, contradicting the pure nature which affirms Absolute Authority to the Lord and your Creator. You flee from the embarrassing question posed to you: How is it possible for Allah the Almighty to create His creation, grant them power over all the creatures and land, grant them all the amenities of life, and then deny them that which they are most in need of: knowledge of the laws which govern their lives?

ii- You are the nation that permits Usury, which has been forbidden by all the religions. Yet you build your economy and investments on Usury. As a result of this, in all its different forms and guises, the Jews have taken control of your economy, through which they have then taken control of your media, and now control all aspects of your life making you their servants and achieving their aims at your expense; precisely what Benjamin Franklin warned you against.

iii- You are a nation that permits the production, trading and usage of intoxicants. You also permit drugs, and only forbid the trade of them, even though your nation is the largest consumer of them.

iv- You are a nation that permits acts of immorality, and you consider them to be pillars of personal freedom. You have continued to sink down this abyss from level to level until incest has spread amongst you, in the face of which neither your sense of honour nor your laws object.

Who can forget your President Clinton’s immoral acts committed in the official Oval office? After that you did not even bring him to account, other than that he ‘made a mistake’, after which everything passed with no punishment. Is there a worse kind of event for which your name will go down in history and remembered by nations? (I'd reckon that killing civillians by both sides beets a cigar show hands down :? )

v- You are a nation that permits gambling in its all forms. The companies practice this as well, resulting in the investments becoming active and the criminals becoming rich.

vi- You are a nation that exploits women like consumer products or advertising tools calling upon customers to purchase them. You use women to serve passengers, visitors, and strangers to increase your profit margins. You then rant that you support the liberation of women. (interesting point, along with that of making women cover up and not get an education or see a doctor.....)


vii- You are a nation that practices the trade of sex in all its forms, directly and indirectly. Giant corporations and establishments are established on this, under the name of art, entertainment, tourism and freedom, and other deceptive names you attribute to it.

viii- And because of all this, you have been described in history as a nation that spreads diseases that were unknown to man in the past. Go ahead and boast to the nations of man, that you brought them AIDS as a Satanic American Invention.

xi- You have destroyed nature with your industrial waste and gases more than any other nation in history. Despite this, you refuse to sign the KYOTO agreement so that you can secure the profit of your greedy companies and industries.


x- Your law is the law of the rich and wealthy people, who hold sway in their political parties, and fund their election campaigns with their gifts. Behind them stand the Jews, who control your policies, media and economy.

xi- That which you are singled out for in the history of mankind, is that you have used your force to destroy mankind more than any other nation in history; not to defend principles and values, but to hasten to secure your interests and profits. You who dropped a nuclear bomb on Japan, even though Japan was ready to negotiate an end to the war. How many acts of oppression, tyranny and injustice have you carried out, O callers to freedom?

xii- Let us not forget one of your major characteristics: your duality in both manners and values; your hypocrisy in manners and principles. All manners, principles and values have two scales: one for you and one for the others.

(a) The freedom and democracy that you call to is for yourselves and for white race only; as for the rest of the world, you impose upon them your monstrous, destructive policies and Governments, which you call the ‘American friends’. Yet you prevent them from establishing democracies. When the Islamic party in Algeria wanted to practice democracy and they won the election, you unleashed your agents in the Algerian army onto them, and to attack them with tanks and guns, to imprison them and torture them – a new lesson from the ‘American book of democracy’!!!

(b) Your policy on prohibiting and forcibly removing weapons of mass destruction to ensure world peace: it only applies to those countries which you do not permit to possess such weapons. As for the countries you consent to, such as Israel, then they are allowed to keep and use such weapons to defend their security. Anyone else who you suspect might be manufacturing or keeping these kinds of weapons, you call them criminals and you take military action against them.

(c) You are the last ones to respect the resolutions and policies of International Law, yet you claim to want to selectively punish anyone else who does the same. Israel has for more than 50 years been pushing UN resolutions and rules against the wall with the full support of America.

(d) As for the war criminals which you censure and form criminal courts for – you shamelessly ask that your own are granted immunity!! However, history will not forget the war crimes that you committed against the Muslims and the rest of the world; those you have killed in Japan, Afghanistan, Somalia, Lebanon and Iraq will remain a shame that you will never be able to escape. It will suffice to remind you of your latest war crimes in Afghanistan, in which densely populated innocent civilian villages were destroyed, bombs were dropped on mosques causing the roof of the mosque to come crashing down on the heads of the Muslims praying inside. You are the ones who broke the agreement with the Mujahideen when they left Qunduz bombing them in Jangi fort, and killing more than 1,000 of you prisoners from suffocation and thirst. Allah alone knows how many people have died by torture at the hands of you and your agents. Your planes remain in the Afghan skies, looking for anyone remotely suspicious.
(e) You have claimed to be the vanguards of Human Rights, and your Ministry of Foreign affairs issues annual reports containing statistics of those countries that violate any Human Rights. However, all these things vanished when the Mujahideen hit you, and you then implemented the methods of the same documented governments that you used to curse. In America, you captured thousands the Muslims and Arabs, took them into custody with neither reason, court trial, nor even disclosing their names. You issued newer, harsher laws.

What happens in Guatanamo is a historical embarrassment to America and its values, and it screams into your faces O you hypocrites, “What is the value of your signature on any agreement or treaty?”


(3) What we call you to thirdly is to take an honest stance with yourselves - and I doubt you will do so – to discover that you are a nation without principles or manners, and that the values and principles to you are something which you merely demand from others, not that which you yourself must adhere to.

(4) We also advise you to stop supporting Israel, and to end your support of the Indians in Kashmir, the Russians against the Chechens and to also cease supporting the Manila Government against the Muslims in Southern Philippines.

(5) We also advise you to pack your luggage and get out of our lands. We desire for you goodness, guidance, and righteousness, so do not force us to send you back as cargo in coffins.

(6) Sixthly, we call upon you to end your support of the corrupt leaders in our countries. Do not interfere in our politics and method of education. Leave as alone, or else expect us in New York and Washington.

(7) We also call you to deal with us and interact with us on the basis of mutual interests and benefits, rather than the policies of sub dual, theft and occupation, and not to continue your policy of supporting the Jews because this will result in more disasters for you.


If you fail to respond to all these conditions, then prepare for fight the Islamic Nation.

The Nation of Monotheism, that puts complete trust on Allah and fears none other than Him. The Nation which is addressed by its Quran with the words:

[removed a pile of Quranic quotes]

The Islamic Nation that was able to dismiss and destroy the previous evil Empires like yourself; the Nation that rejects your attacks, wishes to remove your evils, and is prepared to fight you. You are well aware that the Islamic Nation, from the very core of its soul, despises your haughtiness and arrogance.

If the Americans refuse to listen to our advice and the goodness, guidance and righteousness that we call them to, then be aware that you will lose this Crusade Bush began, just like the other previous Crusades in which you were humiliated by the hands of the Mujahideen, fleeing to your home in great silence and disgrace. If the Americans do not respond, then their fate will be that of the Soviets who fled from Afghanistan to deal with their military defeat, political breakup, ideological downfall, and economic bankruptcy.

This is our message to the Americans, as an answer to theirs. Do they now know why we fight them and over which form of ignorance, by the permission of Allah, we shall be victorious?

I am very sorry to post such a long message, but these were letters posted to western media organisations, confirmed by the CIA to be from bin Laden, yet were completely ignored by them and the gov'ts that continue to say that they hate our freedoms. You may wish to ask why it was ignored, I believe it's because a good number of them were legitimate gripes. Please don't anyone act as if I condone terrorism, I don't. But I also condemn the actions which I believe led to terrorism. I have coloured some parts for particular interests.

You may also wish to note that a call to Islam is made, but it never actually denies the right of alternate worship. This is exactly what Christianity and Judaism do.

Along with the west's (I say west because I don't recall the UK, Aust, and many other countries condemning the acts) indescretions are:

Nicaragua - Sandanistas/Contras (this is intrinsicaly linked with the Iranian hostage crisis and the backing/arming of Saddam Hussein and the current Iraq conflict)

Chile - Salvador Allende/Augustus Pinochet.

Too many to go through with names, Argentina, Haiti, Vietnam/cambodia/laos, Saudi Arabia, Indonesia (installing Suharto and allowing the masacres that followed), Afghanistan (manipulating the USSR to launch an invasion resulting in 30-40 years of warlordism and let's not forget bin Laden himself.

Bottom line is, the UK, Spain, Netherlands, France, Japan, Portugal, China etc. all invaded countries, subjegated them, raped people and land etc just the way the US has been aggressively doing since the second world war. The big difference now is that science and technology have allowed the oppressed to fight back (hence Algerians bombing the French, the IRA bombing the English etc.)

I often wonder if bin Laden/Zawahiri etc. put as much money/effort into a worldwide PR campaign, whether he would have had a bigger, more positive impact. Whilst his methods are WRONG his gripe is fairly understandable.
 

parallax

Likes Dirt
So now we know why you've absent for the past week. You've been over in the middle east researching.

Nice posts guys. Making me think - alot.
 

Access

Cannon Fodder
biggest post EVER!
Hardly. In most forums if you talk of philosiphy, religion, history, politics or any topic that has varying schools of thought you will get posts much longer than mine (and much more eloquently put). It comes with the territory. I will admit the post ended up longer than I expected but it did only take 15 minutes to write it up.

So if current trends continue, atleast in the majority of youth voters out there the greens are in for a good chance. With Labor chasing up third. Which is a pity really - you'd think the contenders would atleast try and put some effort into winning to votes of the younger citizens. It just seems that stealing the other parties voters is enough.
Well the Greens vote always go to Labor anyway. Any federal votes that go to the Greens get tallied onto Labor. Thats why the Liberal government has started a smear campaign against the Greens. Saying 'if you vote for Greens you support legalising of Heroin'. Some really nasty things have been said.

Most of Australia especially the country wont vote for Greens because they have seen what the Greens legislation has done. My grand father who has lived on the Billabong Creek for over 40 years who is now 80 years old, was told he must move because the Greens legislation no longer allows settlment along the creek. What is the harm in allowing one old 80 year old Windower live in his home until he dies?

You will find much of the green legislation hurting small groups of innocent people, and in the country everyone knows everyone. Besides if the Greens ever got in Power you would see a very worse of Australia. Look at Germany, the Greens and Labor their formed a coalition to get in power, and the Greens took charge. The problem was that the Greens have no experience dealing with foreign policy, domestic economic growth and many other issues. There not a well rounded party, they have a lot of environmental policies and a few others, but in most other areas they have no opinions and have no ability to control Parliment.

In Germany they found they couldnt control the government and were influenced almost completely by the other parties and were inadequate at putting any of their envoirnmental issues through government like they promised. So much so that the country never really saw a true Greens Party is was quite conservative, and because they were such a push over in parliment the country had no real direction, this resulted in hardly any envroinmental change and a tug of war over most of the other policies, which resulted in a destabalised economy and a whole host of other issues.

No, the Greens is much better as acting as a watch dog to the other Political Parties. I believe whole heartedly in econlogical sustainable development, I try not to believe any of the propaganda spwed out from the Greens or the Conservatives. I take my advice from the "Union of Concerned Scientists", "The Australian Skeptics" and independant University studies. If the greens got into power they would force legislation based around fear and naysay from a small select group of scare mongering groups with poor scientific methods. I understand that Recyling is worse for the country, I understand that second hand smoke doesnt cause cancer, I understand that Geneticly modified food has nothing but benefitial qualities, and that Nuclear power is very very safe. I fear that the Greens in power would push wasteful activities upon the country based on circumstantial evidence.

Could you elaborate please?
Ha, funny. I take it you have no coments on the post however?

Wow Johnny.
I dont think I had read them in their entirety! I was only familiar with extracts. Who would of thought we would learn something about politics on an Australian Mountain Biking message board.

"...we would like to inform you that labelling us and our acts as terrorism is also a description of you and of your acts. Reaction comes at the same level as the original action. Our acts are reaction to your own acts, which are represented by the destruction and killing of our kinfolk in Afghanistan, Iraq and Palestine."

-Osama Bin-Laden (referenceing the S-11 attack)
Very ominous stuff, thats a quote for the ages.
 

Cave Dweller

Eats Squid
Good work Johnny, Bin Laden has some good points there (i like his statement about Kyoto), but i don't support "terrorism", the killing of civilians BY BOTH SIDES, but i do support a countries/peoples right to defend themselves against continued aggression and suppression by countries, such as Israel and the US in particular.

War is not the answer. The US needs to take a long long look at itself and try to understand why these people act the way they do and they would quickly see that they themsleves are at the root of every single problem that is going on in the world at the moment. EVERY PROBLEM, from war to environmental destruction to obesity in the world.
 

danv

Likes Dirt
Access said:
biggest post EVER!
Hardly. In most forums if you talk of philosiphy, religion, history, politics or any topic that has varying schools of thought you will get posts much longer than mine (and much more eloquently put). It comes with the territory. I will admit the post ended up longer than I expected but it did only take 15 minutes to write it up.
:shock: That's 253.3 words per minute, 4.2 words per second or 24.4 characters including spaces (keystrokes) per second! Are you some kind of superhero??






(and that took me about 5 minutes :oops: )
 

toodles

Super Moderator
Cave Dweller said:
Bin Laden has some good points there
That scared me. He's got some very, very good points.

He omits however, what happens to those who don't take the calling, as he refers to it, to Islam. That's what worries me.
 

wombat

Lives in a hole
Access said:
I understand that Recyling is worse for the country, I understand that second hand smoke doesnt cause cancer, I understand that Geneticly modified food has nothing but benefitial qualities, and that Nuclear power is very very safe.
Would you care to elaborate on some of these points? (and I'm not being sarcastic either, steve's sarcastic enough for all of our 5000 users :wink: ). I only have relatively uneducated takes on the subjects in question, but I'd be particularly interested in your points on recycling and smoking.

GM food, well I can definately see the benefits, and see it as one of the keys to alieveating food shortages in needy countries; but at the same time I believe it would be arrogant to state that there are no detrimental side effects whatsoever simply because I don't think we can know at this early stage. You can conduct all the trials you want, but until the products have been in circulation for a period of time, I don't think it is fair to assume that they will do us no harm. In addition, I am slightly concerned about the mis-use of the technology as well, for corporate gain; anyone remember the Simpsons "Tommacco" episode? (I love that episode too, I'm laughing just thinking about it :lol: ).

Nuclear power: once again, I'm pretty uneducated here, but I'm personally not as worried about safety as I am about the treatment of the bi-products of the fission process. I believe that a properly regulated plant can be very safe, but what do you do with the inevitable waste?
On a semi-related note, I haven't heard anything lately about the development of fusion; have they made any significant in-roads in research? Now THAT is something that I'd love to see developed.


Oh, and thanks to all who have contributed to this so far, I'm thoroughly enjoying the discussion.
 

Cave Dweller

Eats Squid
Im sure GM food is safe, just like DDT was a really good safe pesticide, asbestos was a good safe insulator and feeding dead animals to cows to make them fatter was all safe as well.

Oww..... hang on, they all turned out (after many years of use) to be really bad for humans after corporations assured us they were safe while making a quick buck.

Has no one ever heard of the precautionary principal...............
 

johnny

I'll tells ya!
Staff member
toodles said:
Cave Dweller said:
Bin Laden has some good points there
That scared me. He's got some very, very good points.

He omits however, what happens to those who don't take the calling, as he refers to it, to Islam. That's what worries me.
My reading of it is more that the call to islam is not necessarily mandatory for the progress of security. I understand that the second letter says "stop screwing us, and we'll stop screwing you" and this is the main thrust. As any religion does, they wish to convert the heathens, yet I don't read any threat of sanction if this is not done. I think the omission of consequences should be read as a lack of. But then again, whilst he does have some fairly realistic and understandable gripes, anyone that sees the American people as responsible for their gov'ts actions by the theory of paying taxes, needs to educate themselves a HELL of a lot more on the western world. Plus the mofo has killed and maimed a few friends of mine, so I'm conflicted on whether I should pay any attention to him.

The attention should be paid to his support base. As with Hitler, the global conflict waged by these two men could only take place if they have a substantial support base. Out of all the research I have done (I'm willing to post all references if anyone is interested) I have come to a (90%) conclusion that this said support base is fueled by percieved injustices resultant in a lower level of prosperity, due to western intervention in their domestic politics and economy. This began with the Sykes Picquot agreement of the early 20th century, furthered by strategic machinations during the cold war eg: Shah of Iran, Saddam Hussein, instigating Russian invasion of Afghanistan (bet you didn't know about that one :shock: Let me know if anyone wants me to back it up) and is now topped off with the neo-conservative/liberal agenda which just happens to coincide with the interests of Halliburton and other political donors to the Republicans and more than likely the Democrats as well.

Allow this support base to have the political independence it deserves, allow the people to have the prosperity it's natural resources revenue and stop placing one's national interest over anothers and your Hitlers, bin Ladens and other associated loonies will cease to be a global threat and end up in the ranks of those such as the Jones Town dude and the nutcase that gassed Tokyo subways with Sarin (see, I can't even remember their names they were so insignificant).

You don't EVER negotiate with terrorists (these are the people who hold children as hostages and blow up civillian buildings) but you do listen to those who actively support the terrorists (those who give money and sanctuary) for without support, they no longer threaten us.

Read Gerrad Hendersons opinion piece in the Sydney Morning Herald today (14/09/04) to understand the stupid militaristic, hyperbolic, myopic, detremental approach which sums up the current policy of the aust. US and many other western and consevative governments. Compare it with my approach and tell me who you think is looking at the big picture, and who has more chance of providing security (for everyone, and THAT is the key point) in the long term.

Only my morals hold me back from entering politics directly.
 
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