The election thread - Two middle-late aged white men trying to be blokey and convincing..., same old shit, FFS.

Who will you vote for?

  • Liberals

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Labor

    Votes: 21 31.8%
  • Nationals

    Votes: 1 1.5%
  • Greens

    Votes: 21 31.8%
  • Independant

    Votes: 15 22.7%
  • The Clive Palmer shit show

    Votes: 4 6.1%
  • Shooters and Fishers Party

    Votes: 1 1.5%
  • One Nation

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Donkey/Invalid vote

    Votes: 3 4.5%

  • Total voters
    66

Haakon

greenbean counter
Ironically if we western society listened to them we wouldn't be in this climate mess.
I dunno about that… In the absence of other humans and given enough time they would have ended up where we are I think. They certainly have no problems setting fire to the landscape just to make it easier to hunt things… Europeans just got there first with mass planet raping.
 

Plankosaurus

Spongeplank Dalepantski
That logic of pinching land does not work for me given that we have moved on and accepted more and more migrants into the country.
So in the situation of a mixed cultural family you have half the family that are being held to account for pinching land from the other half of the family.
We also have a lot of success aboriginal leaders who have taken advantage of all the benefits of modern society that is a result of the country moving forward in both good and bad ways.
The issue for me is that we are not helping those in need rather just trying to help a very broad brushed definition of someone with links back to their ancestors culture. We don’t even really test how strong that link is and it is very easy to close the gap on paper with already successful people identifying as aboriginal.

I do get that there are good intentions. I am also super skeptical of opening up the doors for more political and power manipulation in the name of what is the right thing to do.
At what point do you think they should just get over it? Would we be cool by now with a hostile takeover if old mate Hitler got his way back in the day? Also remembering that our government has been fucking them over within living memory too.

I feel like they're justified in being salty. I also don't subscribe to any personal guilt about any of it. If this helps bridge the gap and give them back some sense of ownership over their own future, I'm 100% behind it.

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk
 

Halo1

Likes Bikes and Dirt
At what point do you think they should just get over it? Would we be cool by now with a hostile takeover if old mate Hitler got his way back in the day? Also remembering that our government has been fucking them over within living memory too.

I feel like they're justified in being salty. I also don't subscribe to any personal guilt about any of it. If this helps bridge the gap and give them back some sense of ownership over their own future, I'm 100% behind it.

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk
Good question on time frames. I feel like we are past a tipping point and in limbo of a final point to say the past is the past.
German took 90 odd years to pay their war debt treaty but that was all done in recent history.
I think it is more of a question of the cultural mix of who we are now as a cultural society and what can be done to re establish good indigenous culture or what is left of it given we can’t un do the wrong of the past.
Our governments are just bad representative of all of us so they have the power to screw use all over.. 2 weeks to flatten the curve…cough cough pun intended.

I also think truth telling is problematic as it is holding the past history to todays standards in a lot of cases and there was shit stuff done all over the world and still done now.

If we had really well defined cultural groups of us and them then I think the voice mode would work to deliver some value but we have to o much of a blend of all of us now.

I am part Irish and immediate family members identify as aboriginal. So it leaves me with the option to jump on the gravy if we get to paying the rent..lol
 

Haakon

greenbean counter
You only need to look at the changes to the maps of the world over the last couple of thousand years to see that wandering in and taking over is a fairly standard state of affairs in history. Humans be humans, nothing new here…
 

Halo1

Likes Bikes and Dirt
Whatever land I own is irrelevant to me feeling like we owe some kind of reparations in the form of what a large representation of indigenous people asked for being the voice.
So not on an individual level like this ?

What form should the repetitions come in?
Not that it is part of this referendum, I am curious on how this will work on a practical given people feel strongly about it.
 

Scotty T

Walks the walk
Obviously that is a good thing, and if I owned a massive parcel of land, sure, especially if say I inherited it, or didn't need all of it to make a living.

So maybe a voice works out how this can work and recommends something to parliament that might make it easier for all parties.

Just on the money question, the constitution says the Governer General should be paid ten thousand pounds a year. They get a lot less in today's money, talk about hollowing out the public service ;)
 

Scotty T

Walks the walk
Saw vox pops in Western Syd last night, immigrants who oppose the voice because "there shouldn't be one voice just for Aboriginal people" or "what's in it for me".

I looked at the citizenship test, there is one question about the colours of the Aboriginal flag and nothing else on our Aboriginal history.

I suppose if they listen to people like Jacinta they would think there is no problem with our history so why would the Aboriginal people need a voice?

Sigh.
 

Oddjob

Merry fucking Xmas to you assholes
Saw vox pops in Western Syd last night, immigrants who oppose the voice because "there shouldn't be one voice just for Aboriginal people" or "what's in it for me".

I looked at the citizenship test, there is one question about the colours of the Aboriginal flag and nothing else on our Aboriginal history.

I suppose if they listen to people like Jacinta they would think there is no problem with our history so why would the Aboriginal people need a voice?

Sigh.
It's a valid question. My observation is that, just like most political questions, there is a big divide between well educated and wealthy professionals and poorer less educated Australians.

In the Scandinavia-on-Pacific known as Manly, the voice isn't even a question. The question is are you a knuckle dragging, mouth breathing bigot? But of course hand wringing over indigenous affairs is easy when you're well educated and well off.

A good friend of mine who grew up in the country, asked me why I donated money to indigenous education causes. He pointed out that being poor on the western side of the Great Dividing Range was pretty rough for everyone, indigenous or otherwise.

My answer to him was the structural impediments/racism that saw indigenous Australians die younger, poorer, unhealthier and more locked up than other Australians by a few standard deviations. This is even accounting for income, education and postcode correlations. This should not happen in a modern first world nation. Even on a purely selfish level we should all remember St Francis: 'But by the grace of God I am what I am'.

I don't pretend to have an answer but I know what we are currently doing isn't working. Change must happen and if the voice has even an outside chance of making a positive change we should give it our support.



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Jabubu

let you google that for me
Rather than ask what is in this for me, perhaps the question should be will this make Australia a better land to live in collectively? To me the answer is yes.
The thing is, a lot of people don't think it will so are voting no.

I guess they think it will dip into their pocket or affect their rights in some way.
 

ForkinGreat

Knows his Brassica oleracea
That logic of pinching land does not work for me given that we have moved on and accepted more and more migrants into the country.
Wow, really??? Saying that decades of Migration means that the country being invaded by a foreign power, and the indigenous peoples forcibly dispossessed of their land, and often slaughtered, enslaved, or wiped out by deliberate infection with smallpox and the like, but it's all magically ok now or it's irrelevant because a certain number of years has passed ?!?!? Damn, that's ice cold. That argument might work if you were talking about great britain, and the celts being hammered by the romans and those who came after, but "Australia" is only about 235 years old, or maybe 122 years if you take Federation as being the start point.


So in the situation of a mixed cultural family you have half the family that are being held to account for pinching land from the other half of the family.
We also have a lot of success aboriginal leaders who have taken advantage of all the benefits of modern society that is a result of the country moving forward in both good and bad ways.
The issue for me is that we are not helping those in need rather just trying to help a very broad brushed definition of someone with links back to their ancestors culture. We don’t even really test how strong that link is and it is very easy to close the gap on paper with already successful people identifying as aboriginal.

I do get that there are good intentions. I am also super skeptical of opening up the doors for more political and power manipulation in the name of what is the right thing to do.
Yeah, about that, political and power manipulation has been happening, TO ALL OF US, for as long as what we now call Australia has been occupied by people other than the indigenous inhabitants.

Also, The referendum question is simply whether there should be some sort of advisory body enshrined in the Aus Constitution - At All.
There's nothing to say that an unreceptive government wouldn't just ignore any advice it didn't like.

So not on an individual level like this ?

What form should the repetitions come in?
Not that it is part of this referendum, I am curious on how this will work on a practical given people feel strongly about it.
*Reparations. and yes, it isn't part of this referendum. so using it as a boogyman tactic like the LNP is, isn't appropriate.

Anyways, there used to be an advisory body ATSIC, bought in by the Hawke labor government, but it got shut down by the johnny howard LNP gubbinment.
Sure, there was a degree of dodgy shit going on, esp with one of the later chairs, Robert Clark, but he got booted.
It was, among other things a convenient reason to dissolve ATSIC. Johnny and the LNP didn't want there to be Any kind of First nations advisory body at all, and from the grubby level of the LNP/ 'no' campaign, it seems nothing has changed.


The nature of the proposed advisory body to Federal Parliament, and how it would operate, is going to be left up to the Feds to decide. So, look how the LNP are acting now, imagine how nasty it's going to get if they have to figure out what the voice to parliament will mean in concrete terms.


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pink poodle

私の性器はピクセル化されています
The thing is, a lot of people don't think it will so are voting no.

I guess they think it will dip into their pocket or affect their rights in some way.

I would go out on a very thin limb holding a very long bow before I accept that as their true opinion. If you drill down far enough with people saying that, you'll almost always end up at the what's in it for me spot. In general terms Australians have forgotten how to think collectively.






On the slavery note that @ForkinGreat has raised. Let's not forget that was happening into the 20th century, within living memory of some people. Despite so called Great Britain having abolished slavery in 1833.
 
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Dales Cannon

e i π + 1 = 0
Staff member
I would go out on a very thin limb holding a very long bow before I accept that as their true opinion. If you drill down far enough with people saying that, you'll almost always end up at the what's in it for me spot. In general terms Australians have forgotten how to think collectively.






On the slavery note that @ForkinGreat has raised. Let's not forget that was happening into the 20th century, within living memory of some people. Despite so called Great Britain having abolished slavery in 1833.
Kanakas and TI peoples are at most one generation from slavery.
 
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