Plenty Gorge and Parks Vic

jossa

Likes Bikes
Just some information about the current situation at Plenty Gorge.

There has been some fantastic trail work done over the last twelve months that have helped link up the older networks of trails on both the north and south side of the river. Two bridges were also built 11 and 4 months ago to help crossing the river much easier.

However, in the last week these bridges have caught the attention of the Parks Victoria ranger and notices have been put up informing that these bridges will be removed in the very short term. The ranger of the park has been contacted and discussions are about to begin regarding riding and trail work/maintenance.

While the promise of discussions is a positive start, there has been some damage to the signs put up by Parks Vic which in no way help the situation. If anyone is riding in the park, please be patient and understand that there is a process in place to help us continue to enjoy the trails in Plenty Gorge Park.

In the meantime, the bridges will be removed by people other than Parks Vic and kept safe until further notice. Hopefully, we can put them back up soon! Please be good out there and respect the Park while this situation is sorted out.

I hope this helps anyone who rides Plenty Gorge. More information will be posted as soon as it comes to hand.

Thanks
Simon
 

emerthis

Likes Dirt
Hi there,

As a result of discovering the bridgework over Dry Creek (the gully which takes you on to the spur trail up to the north side of the park, from the plank bridge across the Plenty River), the acting Ranger in Charge, Barry Coombes, has left a sign at the bridge advising that it will be removed on 2 November 2012. He left his contact number on the sign and I called him back immediately - on behalf of all mountain bikers - to discuss the issue.

Barry said that he has no choice but to ensure the bridge over Dry Creek is removed, as it poses an unacceptable injury risk. I advised him that it was put there to allow easier access, to prevent erosion in the gully, and it was built with the idea of enabling access for all users (i.e. nice and wide, smooth and flat). He asked how the materials were located on site, and I said that, to my knowledge, they were all carted or trucked in by hand. I did not disclose who built the bridge. I mentioned some of the ways we could mitigate the risks, such as building handrails and appropriate signage, but that we could cross that bridge down the track. I indicated that the bridge would likely be removed by us prior to the scheduled date - after all, we don't want to lose those materials. Barry noted that it had been quite well built, aside from there being no support under its middle.

The Ranger stated that he left his direct contact number at the bridge so that we could start a dialogue between MTBers and Parks Vic, and he was glad that I had called to discuss this. His idea was to leave some contact details there to start this discussion, rather than simply pulling down the unauthorised structure without any consultation or explanation.

I indicated that I am interested in coordinating discussions between interested mountain-bikers and Parks Vic, and also in consolidating the process for use statewide. The Ranger said that Parks Vic is currently developing guidelines for mountain-biking in their lands - but even without those guidelines in place yet, we should be starting talks ourselves. I made mention of the similar issues at Smiths Gully, Westerfolds & Candlebark Parks, and how it would be better if the same approach could be taken across the whole state by Parks Vic and MTBers alike. Barry said that he would try to include the Rangers for Westerfolds & Smiths Gully in discussions when considering how best to move forward in the short term.

The Parks Vic Regional Planner, Garry French, who apparently has a 20-year history with Plenty Gorge, will also be present at a meeting which Barry hopes to schedule for a Saturday some time in the near future. The Ranger said that Garry was proactive in similar discussions in the past, but now has a role which is more aligned with getting something done about it. He asked if I could arrange for representatives from the various groups of mountain-bikers to be present at this meeting, and I said I would certainly do my best.

I believe that people we need on board include:
1. any local trail builders, and riders who have previously been involved in discussions with Parks Vic, the relevant local Council/s and State Govt,
2. George Couyant (who is currently handling negotiations at Hans Loop in Westerfolds/Candlebark),
3. Super Cycle Watsonia, Walkers Wheels & Cycle House,
4. Smiths Gully MBC, Yarra Ranges MBC, Murrindindi MBC, You Yangs MBC, Geelong MBC, Forrest MBC, and any other clubs who have been dealing with Parks Vic,
5. MTBA, IMBA.

I also made note of the fact that there is at least one person, who has been working on and building trails near the water tank. I said that I would try to get this person along to the meeting as well. Barry mentioned the fact that the obvious use of weed spray had sent one of the environmental officers ballistic (well, not in so many words), and this had resulted in some signage being erected in that area at the time. I stated that we, as mountain-bikers generally, are interested in the preservation and conservation of the park because its integrity is crucial to our continued enjoyment of the resource. I stated my belief that the incidence of rubbish-dumping, motorbikes and 4WD vehicles misusing the Park has decreased since the number of MTBers has recently increased, especially with riders now coming from further afield to enjoy the trails in the Park.

Barry mentioned that previously an area had been allocated or set aside for MTBers to use, and he mentioned something about 6km near Yellow Gum (where Blue Lake is). We need to sit down and state what we want from the area, and to negotiate areas we will be able to use. There are conservation areas within the Park, however we don't know where they are - and similarly, the Rangers don't know how much trails we have or use, or where those trails go. Barry did say that there should be some areas we will be able to continue to use while the Parks Vic guidelines are developed and our consultation process continues.

With regard to the younger riders who come and go, building jumps and downhill trails, I suggested that we may never be able to integrate them into the consultation process - as the individuals involved change often, and due to their age and relative inexperience, they don't often 'play by the rules' - they will continue building jumps and cutting trails, regardless of who says what about it - but their impact is minimal as they generally don't maintain an interest in that activity for very long. (Of course, there are exceptions.) I said that I can relate to these younger riders, having come from such a past myself, and that I will gladly try to represent their interests as well - but I don't know how we can promote the consultation throughout that group. I will be using Rotorburn, Facebook, and local bike shops to help in handling this - but I think we also need some representation from the DH/FR/jump scene.

Anyway, this is where we start. If you can provide me with contact details for any of the people or groups listed above, please pass them on by replying to this message, or PM me ASAP, so I can get them involved in this process. The same for all of you as riders as well - no matter where you are, you can be involved, even if you can't come to any meetings.

I have already obtained contact details for Super Cycle, Cycle House, Smiths Gully MBC, Yarra Ranges MBC, and Lysterfield District Trail Riders. I am still waiting for responses to emails from Walkers Wheels, You Yangs MBC, Geelong MBC, and Murrindindi Cycle Club (Buxton, etc).

I'm not looking for any money out of this. I am not (yet) about to start a club just to deal with Plenty Gorge - this is something we should be able to do as a community, and negotiate with Parks Vic and any other stakeholders, statewide.


Cheers,
--
Emerson (on behalf of MTB Melbourne)
0412 715 053
 

Beej1

Senior Member
Hi Emerson,

Glad to hear you've positively opened communications with someone within ParksVic. I'd love to be of assistance where I can. Similar to SGMTB, this is not really that much to offer for the immediate future for many & varying reasons (i've only managed one of the track building days out there so far). But I've helped build a very short linking section of the existing Southern Loop at Plenty so I feel kind attached to the area and would like to see it move forward. I'm wary of sounding like I'm saying "I'll help" and then never be able to help. But if it's just a matter of being on a list for now, then I'd like to be on it.

I've previously chatted to one of the Northside jump area builders on Rotorburn in the past. I think he has moved into the area of semi-professional MTB photography now, but he did seem keen to try and get something going back then. I'll try and remember/figure out who he was and try to get him in touch with you.

Cheers,

Brett.
 

emerthis

Likes Dirt
I have received an invitation from the Ranger at Plenty Gorge to a meeting on Saturday 17/11/12. He has asked that we start with a small group of local riders who have an immediate interest in the Park, to which I agreed.

Any of you who fit that description, please PM me with your email address so I can circulate the invitation to you accordingly.

Thanks,
Emerson
 

danton45

Likes Bikes
I have received an invitation from the Ranger at Plenty Gorge to a meeting on Saturday 17/11/12. He has asked that we start with a small group of local riders who have an immediate interest in the Park, to which I agreed.

Any of you who fit that description, please PM me with your email address so I can circulate the invitation to you accordingly.

Thanks,
Emerson

PM Sent. Keep up the good work.
 

jossa

Likes Bikes
The main bridge over the creek has now been removed. Be careful if you are coming down the spur track from the north. It's a big gap to clear!
 

emerthis

Likes Dirt
Notes from yesterday's meeting with Parks Vic

Meeting with Parks Victoria Rangers regarding mountain-biking in Plenty Gorge
24/11/2012 Ranger’s Office, South Morang
Present:
Barry Coombes, PV Ranger
Garry French, PV Regional Planner
Emerson Thistlethwaite, MTB Melbourne
Casper, local rider, also Smiths Gully MBC
Troy Bussell, Cycle House
Martin Boland, Dividing Ranges MBC (Lysterfield)
Sean Milligan, Super Cycle
Brendan Matthews, local rider
Dave & Judith Anton, local riders
Simon Giosserano, local rider

At the Ranger’s invitation we met to discuss opportunities for mountain-biking in Plenty Gorge Park. Garry French gave a presentation on the main issues of focus for Parks Victoria, and made reference to the Plenty Gorge Master Plan, which is available on the parkweb here:
http://parkweb.vic.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0018/313425/Plenty-Gorge-Parklands-Master-Plan-1994.pdf

Parks Victoria:
PV is responsible for environmental conservation and cultural heritage in the Park. There are several species of rare and endangered fauna and flora in the area, which must be preserved and carefully managed. There are also sites of cultural significance, including pre-contact Aboriginal settlements and later historical developments. These sites need to be protected as well.
Of course, a key concern is the safety of Park users.
PV & DSE are developing state-wide guidelines for MTB on public lands – and the process involves consultation with MTB advocacy groups including Yarra Ranges MBC – however until those guidelines are formalised, we need to negotiate locally with Rangers to agree on where MTB riding will occur in our local Parks. Garry French acknowledged that they are aware that this occurs already, and that a blanket ban simply will not work, either for MTB riders, or for PV. It seems to be that the state-wide guidelines will likely include the consultation process at each site, so our meeting with the Rangers is in line with the plan which is being made.

What PV proposes:
A draft MTB loop has been devised by the Rangers, which provides for a singletrack loop (including smaller loop options) on the part of the Park which is bounded by Oatlands Rd in the east, Blue Lake in the west, Memorial Drive to the north, and Valley View Ct to the south (and the private property which extends west from the end of Valley View Ct – that property which has the motocross track).
There is also a proposal to develop a shared-use trail along the pipeline easement which runs south-east from the reservoir tank, down to the corner of Valley View Ct and along McLaughlins Lane, meeting with the other easement along Sugar Gum Bvd, which is where the Plenty River Trail currently ends. This shared-use path would create a link between the existing bike path network and the picnic area at Yellow Gum Park, and it would be separate to the more natural singletrack favoured by adventurous MTB riders.
Also shown on the map is a proposed trail, pencilled in as “walkers only??”, which runs along the fire trail from the gate on Oatlands Rd (at the corner of Mackelroy Rd), up past the corner of the private property with the moto track, and then south/southwest down the spur. The old ‘alphabet track’ (marked with posts showing letters, A, B, C, etc) for walkers has taken that route in the past.
Garry suggested that there are opportunities for some small built structures, such as low board-walks and small bridges, to get across wet areas identified in the proposed loop – and we agreed that the best kind of trails are low-impact, sustainable, natural trails, with minimal man-made or obvious built structures. Of course, funding impacts heavily on what will be possible, but having riders appearing as a valid user group, with significant numbers, makes a difference to this.

Why?
One reason that this particular parcel of land was suggested as suitable for recreation is that it has all been cleared in the past, and there is no significant high-value conservation area there. Other parts of the Park do contain environmentally important, remnant, natural growth – but this part doesn’t present the same conflicts between conservation and recreation.

Costs:
Any trails or proposed trails will need to be assessed for impacts on sites of cultural and environmental significance. Such issues may not yet be known. There is considerable cost involved in assessing Aboriginal heritage values, and this will be a factor in completing any proposed works.
Costs of trail-building and maintenance are obviously of concern to PV. As MTB riders, we indicated that we could reasonably expect to run working bees and do our own maintenance as may be required, as has recently happened in the past at other sites, such as Panton Hill – and this would significantly reduce the costs to PV.
What about what’s there already?
In regard to the existing network of trails, the Ranger asked that we provide detailed maps of all those trails which currently get ridden – and that we strongly discourage the creation of any new trails for the time being. By providing a comprehensive list of trails in use, PV will be able to (eventually) assess each of those trails for feasibility. It is expected that not all of them will be viable – if there are environmental, cultural, conservation or safety concerns, those concerns will need to be properly addressed. If MTB riders show that we can abide by the rules of the Park, it is more likely that further facilities will be made available. If, on the other hand, closed trails continue to be ridden, it will not help our cause.

Crossing the Plenty River.
Any structure for crossing the river (be it a ford, a bridge, or anything else for the purpose) must meet stringent requirements of Melbourne Water – which include being a single-span bridge more than 300mm above the 100-year flood level. This basically rules out any structure being built across the Plenty between Gorge Rd and the old steel pipe bridge which crosses next to the Plenty River Trail near Lear Ct, off Corowa Cres. The existing fording points will not be improved or recommended, to my understanding. There is a possibility that the old pipe bridge may be used to create a shared-use crossing point, however the steep descent down the pipeline easement on its western side is of concern to PV. There was also some suggestion that another crossing point, over the creek which runs alongside the Plenty River Trail near Palpera Terrace, might be considered for an alternative entry point – however the Park terrain is very steep in that area, and this would require considerable investigation.

The South Side.
The trails on the southern side of the Plenty River, between Kariboo Grove and Janefield Drive, were noted by the Rangers as being predominantly very well-made and sustainable. It was also indicated that this area is already heavy in traffic, including MTB riders, walkers and runners, and that this traffic will only increase once the housing development around University Hill is completed. PV is constructing a shared-use trail between the eastern end of the development and Linacre Drive.
The fact that young riders often build jumps and cut new trails in the bush around this area is a known concern. We discussed ideas like creating an area for dirt jumps – the Ranger suggested originally that there would be room for something like this near the Yellow Gum picnic area, but given that most of its users would probably have no access to motor transport, or any desire to ride the distance to get there, this would be better placed near the Watsonia/Greensborough/Bundoora end of the Park.

What’s next?
The MTB riders will provide the PV Rangers with .gpx files, or other GPS data, showing where we currently ride. Also, a ‘wish list’ for the proposed MTB park area: what we want from it.
The MTB community will also promote the consultation process which has started, and strongly discourage people from creating any new trails, committing to honour any closures deemed necessary by PV.
PV Rangers will endeavour to assess all of those trails and advise what must be closed due to their concerns and responsibilities.

I will keep you all informed as things develop further.
Cheers,
Emerson
 

toofar22

Likes Dirt
Hi guys, I live in Doreen and am happy to get involved when time permits.

Currently I work full time and study part time plus also have a family. I am time poor but excited by the prospects of a set of trail network near my house! .
 

emerthis

Likes Dirt
Hmmm, how come I didn't know about this thread before. How can I help?

Hux
There's not much anyone can do for the time being, aside from sticking to the existing trails and not building anything new before they get a chance to assess what's already there. I will be pressing Parks for some action soon, because it's been months and we've heard nothing.
 

emerthis

Likes Dirt
News

This just in from the Ranger at Parks Vic:

On-ground assessment of the trail network has now been completed, we now have a much better understanding of what is actually out there. Garry, Angelo and myself are meeting this afternoon to discuss and review the information we have compiled over the past few weeks. We will be in touch in the near future to schedule in a some meetings, I’m predicting these will be a mix of on-site and meeting room. Yes agreed, let’s keep communication timely and continuous.

I have spoken with the Ranger by phone today and a bit of email over the last couple of days. Here's a bit of an excerpt from (well, most of) what I had to say:

I saw your signage about the risk removal scheduled to start soon, in the heavily-used part of the park between the old Maroondah pipeline easement and the main fire road, at the southern end of the Park (see linked map). I must say, I was surprised to see how much the 'extreme' trails (with the big jumps) have spread across the area. I must agree that the way those jumps have been built does seem to pose an unnecessary level of risk, and it's certainly not in keeping with the natural forms that most of the more mature mountain-bike community values so highly about the area.

The kind of jumps that have been appearing recently are often referred to as 'doubles', or 'double-jumps' in older jargon. They are comprised of an up-ramp, followed by a gap, and a completely separate down-ramp. They are uncompromising in that failure to negotiate the obstacle successfully carries quite a high risk of injury. There is a way to make these features less prone to risk, as demonstrated at You Yangs Regional Park - simply by filling the gap between the ramps. What you end up with is something that looks much more natural (for example, like an eroded termite mound) - however any trail with this kind of feature needs to be well sign-posted in terms of advisory warnings, and the jumps should be quite clear of surrounding trees, to minimise the chances of an accidental collision.

I think that your proposal for the flat area near the water tank, up towards Yellow Gum (see linked map), is ideally suited to the kind of construction I refer to above - however you will find, as stated by the group at our meeting, that generally the builders of these trails and jumps are local kids, who mostly have no way of accessing the more remote parts of the Park, hence they build near the boundary of the park where the housing estates are located. I am quite sure that you will see a proliferation of this kind of thing once the new development at University Hill and Chancellor has become more established. It can really only be effectively minimised by frequent patrols.

(and I said this about the spur trail where the gully was originally bridged)
I would like to suggest that an alternate route be devised to re-route that trail away from the river, as I don't think the existing alignment is the best possibility - it is certainly challenging for riders and walkers alike, but it's something I hope to discuss in more detail in the near future. I understand that full closure may be a readily practicable solution, but it's not one we find satisfactory, as there is currently no other way to get from one side of the Park to the other without adding close to an hour each way to circumnavigate the Park border from Booyan Crescent, up the long Plenty River Path, filling the missing parts to McLaughlans Lane and Oatlands Rd - regardless of whether it's practical, it ruins the experience. Perhaps one of the old fording points in this area (see linked map) needs to be reinstated, as has occurred recently at Panton Hill and Smiths Gully, or simply rebuilt as a proper causeway to be closed during
flood - it would certainly be a great deal less expensive than any bridge. It is evident that there are several points along the river which have been used this way in the past, and the '100-year floodline'
argument notwithstanding, there is no reason why they could not be again. For example, look at this one on Kalparrin Avenue (see linked map), in central urban Greensborough!

I also noted more signage around the area of the collapsed road across the erosion gully near the old Janefield site. I think this is entirely appropriate, given a quick inspection (from a safe distance) reveals
that the concrete surface has subsided considerably in the past month or so since I was there last, and it's clearly very unstable. Well aside from the interests of trail-users, I would like to see remediation work undertaken with that entire gully, as it's an eyesore in its current state, littered with broken concrete and other old building debris. Perhaps the developers of the estate could be approached with regard to this? I can see that great lengths have been gone to, to stabilise and beautify other gullies (at the very top end) where users of the shared path might see them, but what has been done certainly appears to have no impact at all on erosion or image further down those same gullies. Indeed, the building debris from the new estates has turned parts of the park into a rubbish tip, in the opinion of many of the people I use the Park with.

Referring back to the interests of mountain-bikers, I think the section of trail closest to the old Janefield site, rather than being closed completely, could be easily re-routed so as not to cross the eroded
gully at all, keeping to the lower bank at a mandated minimum distance from its edge. This work would take half a day or less, with some volunteers using rakes and perhaps a machete to take out the taller
weeds (I'm sure they're weeds - I've seen them sprayed by Parks before). With respect to your statement that the trail network appears to have grown extensively, I agree with you about what I assure you has been built by local kids at the very southern edge of the Park, however I can't really identify any other new trails, especially on the Yellow Gum side of the river. I know one old trail has been re-opened, and another old alignment is coming back into use to take pressure off a heavily eroded section near the top of the spur line on the way up to the water tank. There is also a temporary detour (which may turn out to be a more sustainable and interesting route) around one trail which drops straight down into a gully and straight out up the other side, near where an old vertical mine shaft has been fenced off. I believe that such realignment is in the interest of the Park, although I do agree that whoever did it hasn't waited for the ongoing consultation to occur, and as much as the outcome may be better for everyone, it doesn't paint the best picture of co-operation.


So the net result is that things are happening, but we need to keep working with Parks on this. Yes, it's slow, but we're lucky not to have had the whole area closed off under a blanket ban - I think this shows that Parks are willing to work with us, and I expect we will be given an opportunity to meet again with the Rangers very soon, to discuss what happens next.

Meanwhile, if you see that a trail has been closed, please stay off it. The vast majority of the trails used by MTBers in the Park are still open for us to ride - and they sure are getting a lot of use lately! The network is in brilliant condition at the moment, so let's enjoy it as it is for the time being, and look forward to developing the area into a mecca for mountain-bikers!

Cheers,
Emerson
(who is well busy with MTB Melbourne :juggle:, as well as handling this :phone:, having a day job :ranger:, and with a very pregnant wife :preggers: who is about to have a baby! :baby:)
 

Beej1

Senior Member
Great work. Curious to know if you've discussed motorbikes with the ranger? Do they still get out there and bollocks up the trails? Admittedly I haven't heard them in a while but I've been sticking to the trails south of the river mostly. I used to hear them nearly every 3rd or 4th ride and they certainly made the original creek crossing un-navigable.

I mention this because I always figured if a more permanent river crossing was made it should be done such that it's more of a "get off your MTB and step across" kinda setup with large stepping-stone blocks - rather than a bridge to ride across - such that a moto rider couldn't use it. Or perhaps it's not really a problem making it such that moto riders could use it?

Please post if you do get a trail maintenance day organised. Can't promise anything but I'd like to at least know when they happen.
 

onwheels

Likes Bikes
Good work. I use the trails in Plenty Gorge often, and it would be great to see them cleaned up at least. Just curious about one spot that you mentioned;

There is also a temporary detour (which may turn out to be a more sustainable and interesting route) around one trail which drops straight down into a gully and straight out up the other side, near where an old vertical mine shaft has been fenced off
Where abouts is this?
 

emerthis

Likes Dirt
Great work. Curious to know if you've discussed motorbikes with the ranger? Do they still get out there and bollocks up the trails? Admittedly I haven't heard them in a while but I've been sticking to the trails south of the river mostly. I used to hear them nearly every 3rd or 4th ride and they certainly made the original creek crossing un-navigable.

I mention this because I always figured if a more permanent river crossing was made it should be done such that it's more of a "get off your MTB and step across" kinda setup with large stepping-stone blocks - rather than a bridge to ride across - such that a moto rider couldn't use it. Or perhaps it's not really a problem making it such that moto riders could use it?

Please post if you do get a trail maintenance day organised. Can't promise anything but I'd like to at least know when they happen.
Hi np,

I did ask them about the motorbike problem. The response was that there is something in the works, but they're a bit resource-stretched and the 'special solo?' Police unit (the coppers on MX bikes) are just way too busy to help out - but there will be a crackdown in the area before summer. Apparently our southern end of the Park gets a tiny fraction of the moto abuse that they have in the top end of the Park around the big new housing estates.

It will be a while before there will be any trail maintenance days. Your idea for the river crossing is a good one - but it's gonna need approval from Catchments.
 

emerthis

Likes Dirt
Good work. I use the trails in Plenty Gorge often, and it would be great to see them cleaned up at least. Just curious about one spot that you mentioned;



Where abouts is this?
Hi there,

It's hard to explain because the trails don't have official (or even consistent unofficial) names, and we also don't know the names of the gullies, fire trails, or any other landmarks. If you know where the big dipper, or g-out is, then it's around that. As you're heading out towards blue lake, it veers off to your right before you head down the big dipper. It brings you out near the wet u-turn.

See what I mean about difficult to explain? I don't have precise GPS co-ordinates, and also, as it's not an official trail, it's really best that we wait until the Rangers have given us some form of approval before we go about promoting it too heavily.

In regards to keeping the trails clean, most of us like them much the way they are - more natural and less groomed than what you find elsewhere. If there's a branch fallen across the trail, we stop to move it as we're riding along. Currently there's no authority (or desire) to go through with a rake or chainsaw - riding the trails seems to keep them clear enough. We would never want to remove any of the one thousand baby-head rocks protruding from the trail surface - this is part of what gives the area such great appeal.

Cheers,
Emerson:whistle:
 

onwheels

Likes Bikes
Thanks, by 'cleaning them up', I meant the amount of rubbish that gets dumped in there. I agree with you that the trails are fine the way they are.
 

Beej1

Senior Member
Currently there's no authority (or desire) to go through with a rake or chainsaw - riding the trails seems to keep them clear enough.
Except for that genus of tree that contains a thousand tiny spikes per long, thin, tiny-green-leaf-covered branch. You know the ones? There used to be quite a few on the northside that were thankfully removed. They used to be near several parts of the Smiths Gully trails as well and have been mostly removed. I had pruned several limbs off them in the past, but someone took it up a notch and just took the whole thing out in most cases.

I've no idea if they're a pest or not - I remember when taking part in a trail building day out at SG one of the volunteers was a 'friends of the trails' member and she seemed to indicate they were a native that was extremely hard to grow. So if it's the same ones I'm pretty sure she (and other greenery lovers) would be against their removal, but she was in agreement that the new tube stock we were planting at the time should go nowhere near the trail side.
 
Top