Pedal kickback

moorey

moorey

call me Mia
I don’t care about it much…oranges are notorious for it… but I do love riding my ENR through really rough stuff, getting no kickback, and more importantly, the suspension staying active while I brake in the rough stuff.
 
Isaakk

Isaakk

Likes Bikes and Dirt
I swear I felt an increase in kickback moving from a 36 to 54t DT ratchet - at least on lower speed chunky stuff, but there's a chance that was just placebo because it was already on my mind, or was just due to day-to-day variance in riding feel/confidence.
 
Flow-Rider

Flow-Rider

Burner
Isaakk said:
I swear I felt an increase in kickback moving from a 36 to 54t DT ratchet - at least on lower speed chunky stuff, but there's a chance that was just placebo because it was already on my mind, or was just due to day-to-day variance in riding feel/confidence.
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You will do because there's less free play before the hub engages, kick back is usually a problem when you climb tech trails at low speed and your foot is around 11 O'clock and get's blown off the pedal from the kickback.
 
B

BKMad

Likes Dirt
Only bike I've noticed it was on the old SC heckler I used to own. Didn't bother me at the time, but having since had maestro and vpp bikes, I wont be rushing back to a single pivot bike anytime soon. It definitely effects climbing traction. Didn't notice it downhill as I'm not usually pedalling anyway.
 
K

kten

understands stuff moorey doesn't
I could feel pedal kickback on my Titan with an Onyx hub. On my neverending quest for better suspension I even laced a DT350 hub with an 18 tooth ratchet into a wheel for testing. Kickback is definitely a thing.
 
The Duckmeister

The Duckmeister

Has a juicy midrange
I really only get kickback when climbing in a really low gear, when the chain is under tension and the hub ratchets are fully engaged, and hit a rock or tree root or whatever. It's under this pressure that the anti-squat geometry, and how it is affected by different gear ratios becomes apparent. The vertical chainline (basically height difference between chainring & rear sprocket) alters the pull angle on the suspension, and that can change the anti-squat and kickback tendencies of the frame.

On the same bike, and the same trail, I get noticeably more kickback when grovelling in the small ring than when on the middle ring; on the middle ring the effect on suspension is pretty neutral.
 
beeb

beeb

Dr. Beebenson, PhD HA, ST, Offset (hons)
The Duckmeister said:
I really only get kickback when climbing in a really low gear, when the chain is under tension and the hub ratchets are fully engaged, and hit a rock or tree root or whatever. It's under this pressure that the anti-squat geometry, and how it is affected by different gear ratios becomes apparent. The vertical chainline (basically height difference between chainring & rear sprocket) alters the pull angle on the suspension, and that can change the anti-squat and kickback tendencies of the frame.

On the same bike, and the same trail, I get noticeably more kickback when grovelling in the small ring than when on the middle ring; on the middle ring the effect on suspension is pretty neutral.
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It's not just the pull angle changing - the higher up the cassette you go, the greater the ratio change (and the more chain it tries to reel in from the chainring). It's actually one point in favour of multi-chainring dual suspension bikes - a small chainring for climbing increases anti-squat, whereas the big ring reduces it for descending (...but I'm still not sold on multi-chainring duallies sorry Duck).
 
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The Duckmeister

The Duckmeister

Has a juicy midrange
I thought about going further there but backed away.... Yes, a multi-ring drivetrain has the added effect of being able to "change gear" on the suspension; you will find very close drive ratios in a couple of different combinations, but they will have different effects on the bouncies.
 
beeb

beeb

Dr. Beebenson, PhD HA, ST, Offset (hons)
My take on pedal kickback is it varies a lot bike-to-bike, and depends on bike setup too.

I got a lot of it on my Ripmo(s), but they're a high anti-squat bike and I was running a Project321 rear hub with 216 POE, 30t chainring (Ibis recommends a 32t), and 11-50t cassette. Pretty much a worst case scenario. Like @The Duckmeister says, it was worst when climbing. I'd be winching away in granny gear, clamber up onto a square edge and next second the cranks are trying to rotate themselves backwards (with some considerable force at times). If you tried to fight it before momentum had started moving the wheel in an upwards trajectory and onto the obstacle a little it felt like the suspension was suddenly locked out solely due to the rapid rise in chainforce. I did occasionally find I cop it on "descents" as well but generally just where I'd have been on a slight climb or flattish section of trail in a middle gear that dropped into a tight/awkward/slow rock section where the speed was low and rocks were in multiples. In anything but the heaviest gears (which I typically didn't have time to get into if it was after a pinchy or sustained climb) pedals would feel like they would try and kick my feet off. This is something the Pinkbike article just glosses over completely and reverts to the standard "pedal kickback isn't real" premise that everyone only descends in the heaviest gear available, and there's no slow speed drops/chutes/rock gardens/janky hairpins/etc... and even if there is we're all taking them at 20+ kilometers an hour.

More recently I've been enjoying both the Sentinel (30t & 10-51t) and Carbonda (32t & 10-51t) with their Horst & linkage driven single pivot (I think?) suspension layouts. They are much mellower in comparison to the Ripmo(s). Both have 'adequate' anti-squat to prevent wallowing, but predominantly rely on spring force and linkage progression to provide pedaling support - rather than relying on anti squat and chain tension to try and extend the suspension artificially to build a pedaling 'platform'. While these bikes are setup with hubs with lower POE (72 and 44 respectively), neither are low POE hubs regardless and I'm still yet to notice any PK issues.
 
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The Duckmeister

The Duckmeister

Has a juicy midrange
beeb said:
My take on pedal kickback is it varies a lot bike-to-bike, and depends on bike setup too.
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Very much so!
I can't remember the exact name of the site, but if you do a googly search for suspension linkage design or something on those lines it'll lead you to a really in-depth analysis of just about every rear suspension system ever built, with particular focus on anti-squat and kickback.
 
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beeb

beeb

Dr. Beebenson, PhD HA, ST, Offset (hons)
The Duckmeister said:
Yes, that one.... Got in while I was editing! :p
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I may be quite familiar with that site. :p

In terms of design compromises (and also real-world riding) the @Craftworks ENR is one of the most, if not the most impressive 1x dually I've seen. The way they utilised having the high idler pulley mounted on one of rotating links to vary anti-squat and pedal kickback relative to gearing is a masterstroke. The trade-off looks to be a high anti-rise value when braking which could lead to a little unloading of the rear wheel (and maybe a slight lack of progression deep in the travel for those looking to run a coil) - but in a world of compromises, what Hugh achieved with this design is simply incredible.

Linkage Design

linkagedesign.blogspot.com linkagedesign.blogspot.com
 
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Oddjob

Oddjob

Merry fucking Xmas to you assholes
beeb said:
I may be quite familiar with that site.

In terms of design compromises (and also real-world riding) the @Craftworks ENR is one of the most, if not the most impressive 1x dually I've seen. The way they utilised having the high idler pulley mounted on one of rotating links to vary anti-squat and pedal kickback relative to gearing is a masterstroke. The trade-off looks to be a high anti-rise value when braking which could lead to a little unloading of the rear wheel (and maybe a slight lack of progression deep in the travel for those looking to run a coil) - but in a world of compromises, what Hugh achieved with this design is simply incredible.

Linkage Design

linkagedesign.blogspot.com linkagedesign.blogspot.com
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Why won't they build a XL already!

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