Newly Released Bikes General

beeb

Dr. Beebenson, PhD HA, ST, Offset (hons)
I think he’s referring to the split pivot Trek and deVinci use
In that case, not real difference to normal four-bar/horst packaging @pink poodle. (I think that was the question?). I was meaning drive gear in the sense of either the chainring or (for the purposes of figuring out chain forces) idler gear - not referring to the pivot placement at the wheel end.

Although Weagle did design something with a link that had a link with a pivot concentric to the BB:

I think the more recent designs have improved, but the first iteration had a f**ked up leverage curve they called "Sine wave" or some shit, and was wrapped in marketing talk about different zones and how they all did amazing stuff. Except no amount of marketing buzz-phrases were going to save it (IMO) and the reviews were, not stellar. (Pun intended)
 

madstace

Likes Dirt
Basically if you don't want to use the offset output shaft as a pivot there's very little room to attach a pivot for the suspension that fits between the gearbox and rear wheel & doesn't foul the chain. With high-pivot designs becoming more prevalent it'd be more practical/accepted these days, but still presents a fairly small window of pivot placement and would inhibit shock placement (Horst link/four bar with upright shock) or physically prevent it altogether (anything with a shock through the downtube like lower-link VPP, Forbidden, Deviate, etc...) like on a lot of the current common suspension designs. It still allows room for a shock that attaches to the top tube, but it's a bastard (in my limited/hobbiest experience) to get a decent leverage curve out of those designs (assuming you want a nice steady rate of progression in the linkage).

If you want to nerd out with it download Linkage V3 and have a play. It's quite interesting how difficult it is to design a system that would both work well across all performance factors (leverage ratios, linkage progression, anti-squat, anti-rise, pedal kickback, chain growth, CoG dynamics, etc...) and not create any physical clashes between chainring, chain, chainstays, wheel and tyre, and tyre and seattube. It's good fun if you like annoying your brain with nearly impossible problems... :p
I always liked the packaging of the Cavalerie Blackbird (pic below) and thought it made good use of the original Effigear form factor, but would still have allowed tuning of the AS by moving the lower pivot relative to the chainring. Also seemed like it would be relatively easy making a dual link design work as well. Post insertion may have been an issue, so between that, cross-compatibility with the Pinion mount "standard", and the weird spate of honesty in bike reviews around the potential drawbacks that come with high-pivot designs' advantages, the Mimic may have been a good move for them.

380471
 

pink poodle

気が狂っている男
In that case, not real difference to normal four-bar/horst packaging @pink poodle. (I think that was the question?). I was meaning drive gear in the sense of either the chainring or (for the purposes of figuring out chain forces) idler gear - not referring to the pivot placement at the wheel end.

Although Weagle did design something with a link that had a link with a pivot concentric to the BB:

I think the more recent designs have improved, but the first iteration had a f**ked up leverage curve they called "Sine wave" or some shit, and was wrapped in marketing talk about different zones and how they all did amazing stuff. Except no amount of marketing buzz-phrases were going to save it (IMO) and the reviews were, not stellar. (Pun intended)
So like older single speed slope style and 4 cross bikes where the chain stay pivoted around the bottom bracket or the BMW (did they call it) race link in the early days of high pivot bikes?
 

beeb

Dr. Beebenson, PhD HA, ST, Offset (hons)
I always liked the packaging of the Cavalerie Blackbird (pic below) and thought it made good use of the original Effigear form factor, but would still have allowed tuning of the AS by moving the lower pivot relative to the chainring. Also seemed like it would be relatively easy making a dual link design work as well. Post insertion may have been an issue, so between that, cross-compatibility with the Pinion mount "standard", and the weird spate of honesty in bike reviews around the potential drawbacks that come with high-pivot designs' advantages, the Mimic may have been a good move for them.

View attachment 380471
Yep, that one is a good design. Dual link designs are tricky though. Most traditional designs use a horizontal lower link though, and there isn't really room for that in that space. A vertical orientated lower-link would fit, but even a short link creates a lot of rearward travel. That isn't necessarily a bad thing in terms of suspension travel, but it creates huge amounts of chain pull. Typically that's when you'd throw an idler in the system to negate that, but then it's extremely difficult to package one that moves in the direction it needs to go to release chain tension at a similar rate/amount to the amount of chain growth as the rear centre extends, but not have that idler link clash with the suspension lower link, (offset output) chainring, chainstay, chain, or tyre. It could be made to work, but it wouldn't fit easily.
 

Asininedrivel

caviar connoisseur
$4092AUD for an "overseas made" Titanium frame only! :oops:
I'm normally okay with playing devil's advocate and trying to argue why expensive bike is expensive but nah. What's a Prova starting at? $5k? For an Australian made titanium frame with crazily good build quality and finish? If you're shelling out that kinda money why wouldn't you just go a bit further for something like that?

Having said that, these kinds of prices are going to become increasingly common.. hopefully it gets more companies building more stuff in house.
 

beeb

Dr. Beebenson, PhD HA, ST, Offset (hons)
I'm normally okay with playing devil's advocate and trying to argue why expensive bike is expensive but nah. What's a Prova starting at? $5k? For an Australian made titanium frame with crazily good build quality and finish? If you're shelling out that kinda money why wouldn't you just go a bit further for something like that?

Having said that, these kinds of prices are going to become increasingly common.. hopefully it gets more companies building more stuff in house.
Yep. I actually think Prova offer pretty "reasonable" value for a local builder. Like yep, it's a big wad of cash - but you're getting something truly custom and beautifully made (I have no real criticisms of Waltly's build quality, but you're not getting 3D additive manufactured custom dropouts and chainstay yokes either...). Those Knollys are just a Waltly (or similar) with a 300% mark-up. Fuck that shit. I'm sure Knolly would put up some shpiel about covering expenses and warranty and looking after their staff, but really it's just opportunistically preying on supply shortages to rip off the customer. Smart way to turn a profit, but a cunty way to treat the customer & market.

I think this pricing surge stuff pisses me off more because manufacturers keep bitching about increased materials and shipping costs, but they sure aren't complaining about selling out their entire year's production run as soon as they land, and not being stuck with a bunch of unsold product in weird sizes on their warehouse shelves for years to come.

Dunno, I'm in a shit mood today so generally feeling a bit "fuck those guys" anyway.
 
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shiny

Go-go-gadget-wrist-thingy
Yep. I actually think Prova offer pretty "reasonable" value for a local builder. Like yep, it's a big wad of cash - but you're getting something truly custom and beautifully made (I have no real criticisms of Waltly's build quality, but you're not getting 3D additive manufactured custom dropouts and chainstay yokes either...). Those Knollys are just a Waltly (or similar) with a 300% mark-up. Fuck that shit. I'm sure Knolly would put up some shpiel about covering expenses and warranty and looking after their staff, but really it's just opportunistically preying on supply shortages to rip off the customer. Smart way to turn a profit, but a cunty way to treat the customer & market.

I think this pricing surge stuff pisses me off more because manufacturers keep bitching about increased materials and shipping costs, but they sure aren't complaining about selling out their entire year's production run as soon as they land, and not being stuck with a bunch of unsold product in weird sizes on their warehouse shelves for years to come.

Dunno, I'm in a shit mood today so generally feeling a bit "fuck those guys" anyway.
Agree with you Dr @beeb with boutique brands frames pushing $6k or more, complete bikes with GX or Deore in the $8-10k range it’s truly nuts. Unlikely once ol COVID settles down we will see prices drop either. It’s the new normal I guess. Just a big steaming pile of horse poo really. Off to shout at some clouds.
 

moorey

call me Mia
I think this pricing surge stuff pisses me off more because manufacturers keep bitching about increased materials and shipping costs,
I’m told lumber costs in the US have returned to pre-pandemic prices. I wonder if same applies for other materials?
 

beeb

Dr. Beebenson, PhD HA, ST, Offset (hons)
Did LOL, an underutilised word I reckon.
I suspect that your pals at Waltly make most of the "custom" Ti frames on the market. RSD, Curve and so on
Haha, too many years in various mechanical workshops to not drop it occasionally... :p

And yeah, sometimes the "Not-a-Waltly" frames are well hidden with non-catalogue rear dropouts and brake mounts (but identical ISCG tabs, cable ports, bottle mounts screws, tube profiles, etc...), but some of them are just straight up standard Waltly frames. It's not all bad as you'd still get a well-made frame, it's just you're paying someone a huge premium to be a freight forwarder.

The "brands" that really make me laugh are the ones where you have to place a deposit and wait for your frame to be built - even for the brand's standard geometry! It's like "Wow, all of the disadvantages and none of the benefits! Where do I sign?". o_O
 
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