Has bike design/ innovation peaked?

[shiny]

Been pondering this for a few weeks. With ‘new’ bikes being released and many just being a refresh or refinement of the previous design are we seeing a peak for design (geometry, wheel size, suspension design etc) or given the roller coaster of COVID are manufacturers holding back and not investing too much in new designs? A few exceptions being the new Scott Genius, which is really an evolution of the Spark/Bold design and the new Merida One Sixty.

E-bikes tend to be getting more investment with lighter batteries and quieter motors - are we on the plateau or is a raft of new standards around the corner?

 

[Halo1]

I started to think this when GT were no longer doing their own suspension thing. I think it will soon be like I phones where a new better model feels mostly the same.
It will become fun again to be under biked when being over biked gets boring.

 

[shiny]

I started to think this when GT were no longer doing their own suspension thing. I think it will soon be like I phones where a new better model feels mostly the same.
It will become fun again to be under biked when being over biked gets boring.

The iPhone is a good analogy, minor tweaks but still feels same. Can only go so slack and steep before we end up riding a Grim Donut.

 

[gregb]

As we speak, the marketing teams are working on something you never knew you couldn't live without.

New BB standard?
32" wheels?
Extra Boost hubs?

 

[Calvin27]

Pretty much the industry needs to innovate to improve their supply chains. Folks in USA seem to struggle to get stock as do we here. The europeans have it good and can basically get anything at decent prices.

In the next few years probably gonna see the major brands competing on price volume again (one can hope) with a few differentiated products for halo effect. Sort of like maybe giant making a steel trail/bikepacking bike to focus on the more lucrative niche market. The sheer amount of norco torrents and kona honzos sold in the last few years has got to raise some eyebrows.

As for crazy new standards, plenty of room to grow and innovate. Not all of it is going to be for the benefit of the customer, some of it is cost saving (not that I am convinced it flows to the consumer).
- 13 speed - yes speed wars are gonna continue.
- Direct mount derailleurs. It's time. I shouldn't have to keep $50 spares that I might not ever need. Getting the industry to agree on a hanger standard is not going to work, easier to delete the bloody thing. Sramano can also then release a new line of derailleurs that are direct mount and have something to do and money to make.
- Simplification of the suspension design to make it cheaper. Return of the single pivot and coil design for ebikes. Not gonna notice with a motor powering you along.

As we speak, the marketing teams are working on something you never knew you couldn't live without.

- Pedal threads. Stripping threads? Need more stiffness on your rides? Go bigger. 19mm metric threaded pedals! Want lightweight, we are also releasing 12mm threaded pedals for your inner weight weenie!
- Bottle bosses are now going to be M7 and spaced different to the standard so that no new bike can use old bottle mounts. Everyone rides ebikes anyway who needs water?
- Square section seatposts so you can run needle bearing lefty style droppers that a 5% stiffer but 99% more compliant.

 

[The Reverend]

I think the geometry wars are almost over.

There still seems to be some brands who don't care or can't be bothered to work out size specific aspects with any meaningful differences.

Geo, shock tuning, tube gauge. The fact that the same shock tune in the main goes on an XS bike as the XXL bike when it's pretty obvious the rider is going to vary in weight is laughable.

And 2mm increases in rear centre when the reach increases by 10* per size is a joke too.
For most it won't matter which is why brands can continue to get away with it (even calling it a feature in some cases).

As this is the case, I'd anticipate the new frontier to be annoying "advances" in integration or solutions to problems nobody has.

If anyone solves tyres without air, they'll be onto something. Especially if it's at a decent weight / durability/ price.

 

[fjohn860]

If anyone solves tyres without air, they'll be onto something. Especially if it's at a decent weight / durability/ price.

 

[steve jobs' pancreas]

As this is the case, I'd anticipate the new frontier to be annoying "advances" in integration or solutions to problems nobody has.

Agree.

Who needs Canyon's K.I.S system when you have a well developed white knuckle grip ?

 

[Mr Crudley]

Yep, it has reached the maturity phase and now on the plateau.

Companies that have been purchased during their growth and innovation phases when they wanted to make a name for themselves making cool bikes are now owned by larger companies with shareholders that are more interested in safe growth and lower risk opposed to wiping the board clean and starting again on the new cool but risky idea.

Happens right across the board for many sorts of product we see day to day that descend into cheap to produce generic looking things which isn't always what the customer would like anyhow. We remember the good parts of the 'good ol' days' but are keen to ignore they bad bits of the 'good ol' days' Most people can appreciate a 1957 Chevrolet BelAir but no one cares for 2023 Malibu nor know what it looks like.

Have to agree of the above: A rethink of the derailleur and drivetrain is long overdue and you would think that it would be a priority with more torque from eBikes and tyres that don't go flat or something that can sort out the kludge of tyre inserts mixed with sealant would be great. There is no excitement for me for 0.5 degree angles changes and proportional chainstays or integrated headset cabling. For the casual rider it wouldn't make any difference either.

We are firmly in the era of incremental change right now designed for bikes that will mostly use manufactured flowly trails and not have to go uphill nor in back country remote areas too far away from a carpark.

Once AliExpress makes viable alternatives that no one sneers at then the race is truly done and dusted. eBikes are the new frontier that can be milked for some time yet and they know it. Analogue / acoustic bikes will be slowly phased as eBikes dominate. The phat bike experiment sure didn't last long enough. Maybe a back to basics approach with raw metal non carbon frames and external cable routing but with newer adjustable geo, linkages and suspension design or designs that work well with either 27.5/29 wheel size of your choice could have its place too.

Still keen to see where it all ends up by the time I drop off the perch for good.

 

[Calvin27]

Maybe a back to basics approach with raw metal non carbon frames

What ever happened to hydroforming? You used to get a huge range of bikes hydroformed front triangles, and now they all seem to be welded. Even the expensive alu bikes are all welded now but with massive price hikes.

I'm hoping ebikes can bring about the gearbox revolution. Cleaning chains and gears is crap.

 

[Mr Crudley]

What ever happened to hydroforming? You used to get a huge range of bikes hydroformed front triangles, and now they all seem to be welded. Even the expensive alu bikes are all welded now but with massive price hikes.

True, maybe focusing on CF shapes took all of the focus.

I'm hoping ebikes can bring about the gearbox revolution. Cleaning chains and gears is crap.

A derailleur hanging in a spot that is bound to get hit is good enough reason for a rethink IMHO.

 

[The Reverend]

True, maybe focusing on CF shapes took all of the focus.


A derailleur hanging in a spot that is bound to get hit is good enough reason for a rethink IMHO.

Exactly. I'd like to see things that don't need constant service or have greater durability (I'm looking at you Fox).

Start fixing things that fail / break / are too sensitive / are too vulnerable.

Of course, 13speed drivetrains and a new BB standard is what we'll get.

 

[Tubbsy]

I reckon the new frontier on high-end bikes will be more built in telemetry like Mondraker do, linked in with electronic suspension management etc. They'll probably try and get bikes to 'learn' a trail, remember where you liked your dropper at different points, make suggestions for you riding etc.

More internal routing too as @shiny mentioned.

 

[The Dude]

Not all of it is going to be for the benefit of the customer

Ex-squeeze me?

 

[Calvin27]

I'd like to see things that don't need constant service or have greater durability (I'm looking at you Fox).

Bring back suspension sleeves/boots.

 

[The Duckmeister]

What ever happened to hydroforming? You used to get a huge range of bikes hydroformed front triangles, and now they all seem to be welded.

Hydroformed frames are still welded, but often ground & polished to smooth out & hide the welds. Hydroforming uses hydraulic pressure, with the tube in a mould, to shape the tube and create a larger join area for welding.

Just about every aluminium frame these days is hydroformed to some extent; it's such a common process now that it's no longer a catchy mucketing buzzword.

 

[beeb]

And 2mm increases in rear centre when the reach increases by 10* per size is a joke too.

This is actually a good thing. A rider's weight is not equally placed between front and rear axles. Given the rider's weight distribution is rearward, if you extended rear centres 10mm per frame size (let alone 10mm RC for 10mm of reach), bikes would become (very rapidly) increasingly nose-heavy as the sizes went up. 2-3mm per frame size is far more significant than it sounds.

 

[The Reverend]

This is actually a good thing. A rider's weight is not equally placed between front and rear axles. Given the rider's weight distribution is rearward, if you extended rear centres 10mm per frame size (let alone 10mm RC for 10mm of reach), bikes would become (very rapidly) increasingly nose-heavy as the sizes went up. 2-3mm per frame size is far more significant than it sounds.

I'm not quite sure where you're going with this reasoned argument. I'm upset about the 2mm per size increases and I want validation, not explanation.


In all seriousness though, I look for the ratio between the front and rear centre. If it's at 35% or so I find it rides well for me. Beneath that gets pretty unruly on the trail.

When the wheelbase increases a fair amount but the rear only by 2mms or so it means the ratio still drops off. It's better than nothing though.

 

[Halo1]

Gorilla Gravity we’re onto something with their adjustable headset and modular frame bits. I see this as the next innovation to have frame parts to suit body shape. Eg XL for daddy long legs vs someone same height with shirt legs long torso.
I think liteville have different chain stays through sizes too and would be expanding this.

 

[Asininedrivel]

I see this as the next innovation to have frame parts to suit body shape. Eg XL for daddy long legs vs someone same height with shirt legs long torso.

I think the trend of shortening seat posts across models has been providing some options for say, a 180cm height rider to go a medium for greater agility or large for moar sled. What's been cool for us brontosauruses is brands like Transition (and now Yeti) offering the same with new XXL sizes offering a substantial overlap with the next size down, so if you're circa 6'5ish you have the same options.