ACT FOUND. What to buy / wanted to buy: Prime or Phantom

[droenn]

Looking to see whats out there, but also looking for opinions if I go for a new frame.

Item: Frame-only
Location: Canberra
Price range/Willing to Pay: this really depends on age and use...
Extra Info: Going to try my luck here before committing to a new frame, which just keep on going up in cost.

Ideally I want to keep everything I have and move it across to a new frame that's a bit longer than what I have. So that means being able to accommodate a non-boost rear mainly, and threaded BB. Banshee are ticking those boxes for me, so am looking at those in the first instance.

This is my current bike: https://www.rotorburn.com/forums/index.php?threads/smugglin.316439/

First issue is geo. The Smuggler's (medium) reach is 432mm, STA 75.4 and HA 67.5. I think I posted in the build thread that I thought it was going to be too small. Well, yes and no. For general trail riding its fine, and I like that its quite short overall (1160 wheelbase) - but it verges on cramped sometimes (tight switchbacks) and I don't feel as comfortable when I want to go down rocky descents as I did with a longer bike. I'm 178 cm.

So a Large V2 or Medium V3 Banshee will give me just that little extra room (only 20mm extra reach but its a big jump up to the next size).

Second issue is travel. I am really liking the 140 F / 115 R combo of the Smuggler and I think I've said before it allows me to ride nearly everything I want to. I wouldn't go any less travel, so the V2 Phantom is out. The only area I don't feel as comfortable are the bigger rocky trails that the 153 mm Process used plow through really well. It could be mainly geo though rather than travel, but both contributing. In any case, should I lean towards the Phantom and have 80-90% of my riding covered really well, or just get the Prime and always have that little extra rear squish? Short travel 29ers are sweet, and the Prime is probably at the limits of how big a bike I'd want to go - just not sure if my typical Stromlo lap needs a Prime most of the time..

Open to suggestions of other frames that might worthwhile? Aluminum and 29er of course.

The Shortlist (so far)

Large V2 Prime
Large V3 Prime
Large V3 Phantom

 

[Rorschach]

My 2c after going through a similar decision earlier this year:
I went with the Prime, but put a pair of 140mm forks on it, which is at the bottom end of the travel range, and I keep clipping the pedals so consider that. I expect that had I gone with the Phantom this wouldn't be an issue. I ride a mix of more XC loops as well as 'winch up, glide down' stuff and am considering some longer travel forks
I also find it climbs really well (better than my hardtail with the increased traction) and if I want to truck through stuff I can. There is little pedal bob, but the extra travel is a life saver if I need it. I expect the Phantom to behave similarly but with less rear travel.
If you're set with having a max of 140mm on the front, get the Phantom - it's a great 'downcountry' bike. If you're more open to bumping up the front or don''t mind clipping pedals, get a Prime - I love mine regardless
Plus they both look amazing in the flesh

 

[Ultra Lord]

I went from an XL scout (same era as your tranny) to an XL V2 spitfire and expected the spitty to be longer, it wasn’t. Felt exactly the same, but with a lower front end.
Something to consider.
The steep STA on the new banshees might make the seated position feel a little cramped if you get a medium?

I’d go a prime, and run less sag. The V2 spitty did pedal better than my scout did even though it had more travel (140 up from 125).

 

[leitch]

When you say cramped in tight switchbacks, do you mean going up or down (seated or standing)? Medium V3 Phantom is longer in reach but because of the steeper seat tube, it will not give you any more space in the cockpit when seated - ETT is basically identical.

I'm 178cm too, looking at the geo chart would 100% go for the L Phantom at 620ETT/470R. Stack is a bit higher too so you can lose all those spacers under your stem (which are also bringing the bars back closer to you contributing to things being more cramped).

 

[Rorschach]

Missed the height. I'm also 178cm and the large Prime is a perfect fit for me

I'm 178cm too, looking at the geo chart would 100% go for the L Phantom at 620ETT/470R. Stack is a bit higher too so you can lose all those spacers under your stem (which are also bringing the bars back closer to you contributing to things being more cramped).

I saw something similar to this from Keith on MTBR, basically said run the bars lower and with a higher rise. I run a 5mm spacer and have 25mm and positioning is great

 

[droenn]

If you're set with having a max of 140mm on the front, get the Phantom - it's a great 'downcountry' bike. If you're more open to bumping up the front or don''t mind clipping pedals, get a Prime - I love mine regardless

OK good insight, thanks! I think 140mm is plenty for what I ride at the moment. I haven't gone to Thredbo for a couple years now...

When you say cramped in tight switchbacks, do you mean going up or down (seated or standing)? Medium V3 Phantom is longer in reach but because of the steeper seat tube, it will not give you any more space in the cockpit when seated - ETT is basically identical.

oof, good point. There is bugger all in the ETT. The Kona I had was 629 ETT actually, but very slack STA from memory. Found that bike big but not too big. Also, I meant more with climbing for the cramped, I've adjusted a bit, but when I first started riding it, would hit my knee on the handlebars when seated climbing.

I'm 178cm too, looking at the geo chart would 100% go for the L Phantom at 620ETT/470R. Stack is a bit higher too so you can lose all those spacers under your stem (which are also bringing the bars back closer to you contributing to things being more cramped).

Yeah there aren't so many spacers under the stem now if you're referring to that first pic - but I do like handlebars a bit higher. If I can get a similar feel to the Smuggler in a roomier form, I'd be pretty happy.

The steep STA on the new banshees might make the seated position feel a little cramped if you get a medium?

I’d go a prime, and run less sag. The V2 spitty did pedal better than my scout did even though it had more travel (140 up from 125).

I'm thinking that might be the case now too..

Thanks all so far.

So I guess a L is the way to go for V2 or V3 Prime, or a V3 Phantom.

 

[droenn]

Missed the height. I'm also 178cm and the large Prime is a perfect fit for me

Good to know, but also interesting if you go off the Banshee sizing, it suggests that at our height we just scrape in for an L, but are sweet for a M.

 

[Rorschach]

Good to know, but also interesting if you go off the Banshee sizing, it suggests that at our height we just scrape in for an L, but are sweet for a M.

Depends on your Ape index I suppose, but I'm pretty neutral across the board and it fits me well. I'm pretty sensitive to geometry and have spent a shedload of money on getting my roadie fitted after sore legs and sore backs and the like and I don't have any of the same issues.

 

[leitch]

Also, I meant more with climbing for the cramped, I've adjusted a bit, but when I first started riding it, would hit my knee on the handlebars when seated climbing.

So I guess a L is the way to go for V2 or V3 Prime, or a V3 Phantom.

I assumed seated in which case you definitely want the longer ETT. Can always go to a 35 or 40mm stem if you want to be in between, but I’d wager the L v3 Phantom would be perfect. Also because I’m projecting a bit, they look like an awesome bike.

 

[droenn]

Perhaps there is a L Prime /Phantom owner who wants to move up to a Titan and then move on their frame?

QLD - Banshee Titan Black Large

Item: Banshee Titan V3 Frame Location: Brisbane QLD Item Condition: Great. A few stone chips on the RH chainstay and on the brace in front of the rear wheel but overall damn good. Reason for selling: Gone full ebike Price and price conditions: $2000+shipping for frame only no shock. Negotiable...

www.rotorburn.com

 

[droenn]

Ok real issues.

Banshee are only doing raw frames at the moment, which means if go with a Phantom the red accents and my current green components would be... interesting.

Prime with the black (or dark grey?) accents will work much better.

IS THIS WHAT IT HAS COME TO?

 

[beeb]

Ok real issues.

Banshee are only doing raw frames at the moment, which means if go with a Phantom the red accents and my current green components would be... interesting.

Prime with the black (or dark grey?) accents will work much better.

IS THIS WHAT IT HAS COME TO?

Decals are cheap.

 

[blacksp20]

Embrace the mixed colour scheme. I have raw/red with green/black suspension and blue/black/silver wheels. It may not be the sexiest thing around, but when I’m out on it, it could be poo brown for all I care. The fun factor more than makes up for the colour scheme.

 

[dirtdad]

I find the Prime pedals really well. Not hardtail tight feeling, but good for 135mm squish. Can't compare as I haven't ridden the Phantom.
Not sure what your Stromlo laps are like, but I found my 140 Mondraker was pretty good for the trails I liked there (WC, Trebuchet, Pork Barrel), and I wouldn't want less than the Prime's 135mm if I accidently happened to huck the road gap to flat again. [No humble brag, I fell well short of the lander]. Or if I had the cojones to try and actually hit some of the (rather large) doubles and triples on offer.

 

[droenn]

I find the Prime pedals really well. Not hardtail tight feeling, but good for 135mm squish. Can't compare as I haven't ridden the Phantom.
Not sure what your Stromlo laps are like, but I found my 140 Mondraker was pretty good for the trails I liked there (WC, Trebuchet, Pork Barrel), and I wouldn't want less than the Prime's 135mm if I accidently happened to huck the road gap to flat again. [No humble brag, I fell well short of the lander]. Or if I had the cojones to try and actually hit some of the (rather large) doubles and triples on offer.

My Stromlo laps are really tame at the moment, but I do occasionally hit up Porkies and Trebuchet on the Smuggler, not WC though, that was more when I had the Process. I've never hit that road gap and I don't think I ever will given I know exactly where it is and enjoy the options either side of it just fine

But I get what you're saying, there are plenty of places at Stromlo where a little more travel would be nice, but (imo) not not necessarily needed, most of it I ride fine on my Smuggler. I haven't ridden at our more gnarly sites for years now though (Isaac's and Tuggeranong, even Thredbo), so here I am overthinking whether thats due to not having a bigger bike, or if I'd even get back into that riding if I had the Prime.

I think the reality is that both bikes are going to be great choices, and I'll adapt around the bike. Its amazing how 20mm of travel can cause such option paralysis though.

 

[droenn]

Embrace the mixed colour scheme. I have raw/red with green/black suspension and blue/black/silver wheels. It may not be the sexiest thing around, but when I’m out on it, it could be poo brown for all I care. The fun factor more than makes up for the colour scheme.

I've got some orange pedals and grips stashed away for just an occasion! haha

 

[Boom King]

Embrace the mixed colour scheme. I have raw/red with green/black suspension and blue/black/silver wheels. It may not be the sexiest thing around, but when I’m out on it, it could be poo brown for all I care. The fun factor more than makes up for the colour scheme.

You're not trying hard enough.....

 

[Ultra Lord]

Ok real issues.

Banshee are only doing raw frames at the moment, which means if go with a Phantom the red accents and my current green components would be... interesting.

Prime with the black (or dark grey?) accents will work much better.

IS THIS WHAT IT HAS COME TO?

Vote 1 prime.
No, wait, Phantom.
How good are you with a sharpie?
But with a prime you wouldn’t need to, and banshee bikes do pedal well so it’ll most likely pedal as good as your tranny.
But do you really need that extra 20mm travel?

 

[droenn]

Get out of my head!

Maybe I should ask Hambo for help deciding?

 

[Rorschach]

Get out of my head!

Maybe I should ask Hambo for help deciding?

They’ll have the anodised black by the time you’re down with all the threads and flip-flopping