First Waltly frame

beeb

Dr. Beebenson, PhD HA, ST, Offset (hons)
Holy smokes, 3 degree slacker HA will have a big impact in how a bike handles. Typically a slacker HA will make rocks feel a little more controlled as the fork should be a little easier to move into it's travel - but that's assuming taking rocks at a good rolling pace and aiming relatively straight. Slackish HA's can feel awkward AF in the reach is too short though, but if the reach is good you might need to get into a more aggressive stance in the rocky bits.

If you're actually moving around in rocks though having to pick and choose different lines to make your way through the rocks you're riding, the steeper HA of the Honzo would likely allow quicker/more precise changes of direction and may feel easier to redirect even if there's a touch less bump absorbtion from the fork.

But to answer your question - in theory if the chainstay length and reach is the same on both bikes - yes, the front will be a little harder to weight. I normally notice this more in flat corners more than rocks though, but most of the "rock gardens" I ride are man-made and have safe-ish flow through them so wouldn't highlight the issue anyway...

I have asked for a 20mm longer chainstay length (428mm to 448mm) on my next Waltly to experiment with weight distribution in search of more weighting of the front wheel in a nuetral stance, but it'll probably be a couple of months until it arrives and I can see how true the theory holds.

So while this is all well and good in theory, riding style will have a huge impact on the fit and balance of the bike too. So without trailing you down a track it's hard to get a picture of what the actual issue is. I'm still learning about geo with every bike, so don't take what I say as gospel - it's just an opinion (that's still developing) based on what works for me.

How do you find the fit/handling/front-rear grip balance on the Waltly otherwise? Couldn't just be that the slacker front is allowing you to take rocks a bit faster than you realise, and the (lighter) back end is getting kicked around more accordingly?

And do you have a geo chart for the Honzo?

I'm curious but not claiming to have any answers here, sorry. :oops:
 
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Litenbror

Eats Squid
The geo for the Honzo is here, mine is the 2013 but the only major change was through axle.


I'm riding the 20 inch frame.

I based the head angle off the paradox which is pretty similar geo wise to the Honzo except for the head angle.

I think I'm going to have to ride some of the rocky sections over and over to see if it's frame flex, riding style/body position or probably a bit of both.

I'm thinking of getting a 1.5° headset for the Honzo so I could steepen up the Waltly if I want to.
 

SummitFever

Eats Squid
As @beeb says, the 3 degree slacker HA will have some effect.

If you're not weighting the front end enough you'd be really noticing it on flat/off-camber corners. On the steep stuff it's pretty much impossible to not weight the front more than enough.

Might be something out of left field like the fork binding or being less supple because of the slacker head angle but could well be just a slightly flexier front-end which is exacerbated by the slacker head angle.

Let's get together and check it out.
 

beeb

Dr. Beebenson, PhD HA, ST, Offset (hons)
Dunno - unless it's masses of side-to-side flex, if it does have flex wouldn't that be a good thing through rocks as it would add some vertical compliance? Frame design looks like it'd be pretty stiff already to be honest...

3 degrees difference in HA will make a massive change to bike handling, I'd say just try and spend a bit more time getting to terms with it. My guess is you're just having to ride it more forward than with the Honzo, because with the Honzo's steep HA your weight would more naturally weight the front wheel and this is fatiguing the arms. Maybe try riding it geared or with spare tube or water bottle attached to eliminate some of the weight variance while you're adjusting to the geo too. If it still doesn't feel right after a bit more riding, try the angle offset cups to steepen it up to something more familiar and try to get a gauge on the frame properties from there. For your reference - You've started this query with "are the chainstays are possibly too stiff?" (paraphrasing), but are now worrying about flex... (don't worry, my brain plays these games too!)
 

komdotkom

Likes Bikes and Dirt
I've got a large Paradox if you want to take that for a back to back run with your Waltly and see what the difference is. I'm in Melbourne though which may not suit you
 

Litenbror

Eats Squid
Dunno - unless it's masses of side-to-side flex, if it does have flex wouldn't that be a good thing through rocks as it would add some vertical compliance? Frame design looks like it'd be pretty stiff already to be honest...

3 degrees difference in HA will make a massive change to bike handling, I'd say just try and spend a bit more time getting to terms with it. My guess is you're just having to ride it more forward than with the Honzo, because with the Honzo's steep HA your weight would more naturally weight the front wheel and this is fatiguing the arms. Maybe try riding it geared or with spare tube or water bottle attached to eliminate some of the weight variance while you're adjusting to the geo too. If it still doesn't feel right after a bit more riding, try the angle offset cups to steepen it up to something more familiar and try to get a gauge on the frame properties from there. For your reference - You've started this query with "are the chainstays are possibly too stiff?" (paraphrasing), but are now worrying about flex... (don't worry, my brain plays these games too!)
Oh yeah this query changed completely after the first reply, this is why I put it up. I've been reading too many blogs from frame builders and needed some more sensible (you don't hear that often on here) input. I think it is probably a combination of the slacker head angle and the lighter frame so I will need to adjust my style a bit I think. My biggest worry was frame design but it seems the design should be ok so style it is.
 

Litenbror

Eats Squid
I've got a large Paradox if you want to take that for a back to back run with your Waltly and see what the difference is. I'm in Melbourne though which may not suit you
Thanks @komdotkom unfortunately I won't be down in Vic any time soon but when I am I'll hit you up. I have wanted to give one a ride since they released them.
.
 

Litenbror

Eats Squid
Alright so I think we got it sorted, big thanks to @SummitFever for coming for a test ride and helping me dial in the fork.

So it seems the main problem was the rebound on the fork was too slow. This was causing the fork to pack down and then feel really harsh or chunky sections. Once we opened it up the bike felt a million times better. We also rotated the bars a bit to get a better hand position.

The best we could figure out for why the Honzo felt fine with the fork as it was is the slack head angle of the Waltly and the slow rebound caused sticktion of the fork and meant it could not recover from multiple hits. The steeper head angle of the Honzo meant less sticktion and the fork could recover even with the slower rebound.

So in the end it looks like it had less to do with the frame and was mostly the fork. With the rebound all the way out it was an absolute rocket ship down Point break, Rock lobster and one other super fun rocky steep one at Majura.

Thanks for everyone's input and help looks like I'm not frame shopping, yet.
 

beeb

Dr. Beebenson, PhD HA, ST, Offset (hons)
Great to hear @Litenbror, and kudos to @SummitFever for being the off-bike adjudicator too!

This is the almost finalised design for my V3:
370823


Far from the prettiest design, but should have all the practical aspects covered and I'm chomping at the bit to ride it already, haha. Literally just a slightly geo tweak for better balance, designed around full 29er (technically the original was too, but it was too upright for riding hard), plus room to clear the brake levers over the top tube compared to my original design. It's gonna be fun!
 

Litenbror

Eats Squid
Great to hear @Litenbror, and kudos to @SummitFever for being the off-bike adjudicator too!

This is the almost finalised design for my V3:
View attachment 370823

Far from the prettiest design, but should have all the practical aspects covered and I'm chomping at the bit to ride it already, haha. Literally just a slightly geo tweak for better balance, designed around full 29er (technically the original was too, but it was too upright for riding hard), plus room to clear the brake levers over the top tube compared to my original design. It's gonna be fun!
Looks awesome, Ti anonymous unite!
 

Litenbror

Eats Squid
What did you do and why? I have a problem with my brake fingers going numb. Not sure where to start.
With the slacker head angle the bars were effectively rotated back 3° compared to the Honzo so we rolled them forward a bit. I have had hand numbness in the past and found it was saddle position had to move it forward to sit up straighter.
 

beeb

Dr. Beebenson, PhD HA, ST, Offset (hons)
With the slacker head angle the bars were effectively rotated back 3° compared to the Honzo so we rolled them forward a bit. I have had hand numbness in the past and found it was saddle position had to move it forward to sit up straighter.
And just for added confusion - I've had hand numbness and had to move my seat back. That was with a 77deg seat tube angle on a hardtail while riding bike path during lockdown though... :p
 

Litenbror

Eats Squid
And just for added confusion - I've had hand numbness and had to move my seat back. That was with a 77deg seat tube angle on a hardtail while riding bike path during lockdown though... :p
Yeah it's all different for everyone. The physio got me for under use over use, I under use my lats and roll my shoulders forward. I need to pull my shoulders back to relieve the numbness in my hands, too much working at a desk.
 
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