Electric Vehicles etc

[beeb]

This thread isn't about dumb memes poo pooing electric cars.

Yep.

As long as an electric vehicle isn't solely charged off fossil-fuel powered generators, the vehicle will still be (much) more efficient/clean/green over its lifespan than an internal combustion engine car.

For example, it might be charged off an owner's solar array 99% of the time, and topped up from a diesel-powered electric charger when visiting a regional area on 1% of trips. That's still a vehicle that's being powered 99% of the time/travel range by renewables, and if the regional charging station was to connect to a renewable energy generation source down the track the vehicle would then be run 100% off renewables. But poo-pooing it because of that 1% usage case when comparing to a vehicle with an internal combustion engine doesn't make any sense.

Yes, battery packs are expensive and (currently) expensive to repair because it's very niche work (and if the pack is damaged, potentially very dangerous). So yes, the mechs/techs/sparkies need to be qualified, because they're working with High Voltage electricity. You need qualifiactions to work on 600V (for example) because it can kill you in an instant if you get the decomissioning process wrong. They should have sensors that cut the HV circuit if there's a short, but I wouldn't be volunteering to test them out.

Battery recycling centres are already starting to pop up in Australia, NZ will follow. More battery repair centres will come about purely from market demand in future, and prices will drop as it always does with more competition and more batteries becoming available to salvage used cells from. I'd hazard a guess the insurance agencies will strongly drive that just through commercial interests. They won't want to pay for new replacement packs just because a vehicle has a battery with a failed cell within the pack or the external structure of the pack has been damaged in a crash.

The emergency service response/actions after a crash is an interesting topic, interesting to see how that one progresses over the next couple of years.

 

[Stredda]

What's everyone's thoughts on the new Tesla 4680 battery packs?

Watching Sandy's crew struggle to pull it apart and how it's all bonded together means there's practically no way to repair or repurpose the cells in this pack.
Hopefully there will be a way to recycle the pack as a whole and retrieve the raw elements but it will have to be a total crush and shred method with a some sort of process to dissolve all that bonding material.

 

[Scotty T]

4680 packs.

[removes video link] Lol @Stredda you beat me by that much!

I was super interested to hear about the concept of "ore" from the recycling process and that would make me assume any battery is going to produce better ore than digging it out of the ground. It seems like the idea with all the foam and the bigger cells is to build it so reliable (cell wise) and resilient (structure wise) that there will barely ever be a need for repair on these packs, so most will go to a bulk recycling process.

The emergency response is interesting, but there are already safety measures working with HV, think about any accident that brings down power lines. Maybe there will be sniffer instruments that can tell you if things are live?

I was thinking about @beeb's (I think it was you) comment that they don't need to make these super 0-100 times in the base models. My theory is two reasons:

1. They can. Tesla delivers an Audi or BMW quality vehicle (overall quality arguable but best comparison price and feature wise) that goes faster for the same price. ICE needs expensive things like extra cylinders, larger more complex intake and exhuast systems, forged pistons, high compression to make it fast, electric generally just needs more magnets, or more whole motors, which cost heaps less than ICE equiv, we've NEVER seen a production car with two ICE engines because they are expensive and shitty to do that with compared to elec. So the BMW M3 has a massive amount of expensive stuff added to the single engine to make it faster, Tesla slaps in another motor and theirs is faster for 50k less than the BMW.

2. Range. Range is not getting 10 trips to and from work between charges, it is doing a long trip at highway speeds. I thought about why the Boeing 737 Max exists, apparently because when flying big planes long distances, big engines use less fuel, so they slapped massive ones on there to save on fuel. The same sort of thing can apply to highway driving, the bigger motor will afford you more range on the open road.

Also looking up the prices on the BMW M3 and Model 3 Performance I was suprised that the Tesla is so cheap. Other than wanker factor I can't see a reason for buying the BMW and I was always a BMW fanboi, but everyone has had the rug pulled from under them in terms of performance and it's funny to watch. BMW has to charge 70k over their base model to make their 3 series fast, but Tesla makes theirs faster again for 30k. It's ludicrous!

 

[Squidfayce]

as far as i understand the acceleration upgrades on electric motors dont require a bigger motor or more magnets, just more power throughput to those motors from the batteries. I mean yes a bigger electric motor will be mor epowerfull over a smaller one, but I thought all the motors in comparable models were all basically the same. ( ie all 3's have the same etc.) - uless the comparison is between a single vs dual motor version of the same car

someones already hacked the tesla software showing something like this (not condoning this BTW, I'm sure it voids your warranty),

 

[beeb]

Range. Range is not getting 10 trips to and from work between charges, it is doing a long trip at highway speeds. I thought about why the Boeing 737 Max exists, apparently because when flying big planes long distances, big engines use less fuel, so they slapped massive ones on there to save on fuel. The same sort of thing can apply to highway driving, the bigger motor will afford you more range on the open road.

I doubt this translates to electric motors, as the gearing/torque curve would (I assume) be setup for stop-start usage. I'm guessing up to 60km/h for general driving. They can spin higher without any ill effects due to the lack of vibration, but they're past the peak torque and efficiency points in the RPM range - so they're using more energy, for less output, while also travelling at a less efficient driving speed (100km/h has way more wind resistance than driving at 80km/h). Having a larger motor/more powerful design motor will create more torque, but typically still well outside the best efficiency range. Arguably, for vehicles intended for highway cruising a small automated manual transmission could be of benefit to keep the vehicles in their peak efficiency (and presuambly should be able to do clutchless rev-matching with the electric motor with ease). Would only need something like a 3-speed box as the torque band is typically pretty broad.

as far as i understand the acceleration upgrades on electric motors dont require a bigger motor or more magnets, just more power throughput to those motors from the batteries. I mean yes a bigger electric motor will be mor epowerfull over a smaller one, but I thought all the motors in comparable models were all basically the same. ( ie all 3's have the same etc.)

someones already hacked the tesla software showing something like this (not condoning this BTW, I'm sure it voids your warranty),

Yes, but as with any vehicle - heat is the enemy. Wind the wick up and controller/electronics failures become more common, unless suitably engineered, which adds weight, which means it's working harder, meaning reengineering, more weight, so on and so forth. One of the beauties of electric motors are that they are so easily designed for different power/load/rpm applications.

 

[smaj]

Would only need something like a 3-speed box as the torque band is typically pretty broad.

Is this why Porsce's Taycan has a two-speed transmission?

 

[Stredda]

I would like one of these. They have the performance but not the couple of ton to have to haul around, with the focus on efficiency and aero.

I wonder if I could fit my bike in it.

 

[beeb]

Is this why Porsce's Taycan has a two-speed transmission?

I would assume so.

 

[Scotty T]

as far as i understand the acceleration upgrades on electric motors dont require a bigger motor or more magnets

The main difference I was talking about is the second motor, essentially more magnets, and chips because it has its own inverter. The LR vs Performance is what you say though, the inverter delivers more power to the same motors from the same battery with less range.

This is a good motor tear down from Munro, really cool that the entire range uses interchangeable inverter housings and boards, and even the exact same inverter in some cases.

 

[Stredda]

The main difference I was talking about is the second motor, essentially more magnets, and chips because it has its own inverter. The LR vs Performance is what you say though, the inverter delivers more power to the same motors from the same battery with less range.

This is a good motor tear down from Munro, really cool that the entire range uses interchangeable inverter housings and boards, and even the exact same inverter in some cases.

To get around the second gear arrangement for the Plaid, Tesla did the carbon fiber wrap on the motor windings to help it withstand the higher RPM needed for the higher top speed.

 

[Scotty T]

To get around the second gear arrangement for the Plaid, Tesla did the carbon fiber wrap on the motor windings to help it withstand the higher RPM needed for the higher top speed.

So far ahead of the rest, I can't think of a reason to buy an electric car off an ICE maker.

 

[Oddjob]

So far ahead of the rest, I can't think of a reason to buy an electric car off an ICE maker.

Service, support, quality control?

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[Dales Cannon]

Service, support, quality control?

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Unlikely. I read that BMW is going to a subscriber model for stuff like heated seats and steering wheel. Easier to build all cars to the same spec and then opt in on a monthly or annual subscription for the extras to be turned on or off as wanted. Probably a model of the future. I know when I had the M2 it came with the premium contact service thing and instead of going to all the trouble of pushing a button and telling the satnav where I wanted to go I could push a different button and be connected to a young man or woman in Melbourne who would track down where I wanted to go and then send the information to the satnav for me. I liked that it had reminders for services and let me know that the battery was low at one point when the car hadn't been used for a few weeks but other than that it was just a lot of lazy. Perfect!

 

[Scotty T]

Service, support, quality control?

Yeah, Nissan and Mitsubishi did a great job with their electric cars on that front. Tesla is the sole reason they are now all flipping on electric cars. They didn't want to sell, support or service electric cars before Tesla started dominating by a very long way.

I'll take Sandy Munro's word on the quality control.

 

[Scotty T]

Fuck BMW too for building an electric toy and supercar they knew nobody would buy.

 

[Dales Cannon]

Fuck BMW too for building an electric toy and supercar they knew nobody would buy.

Driven one? They are a bit fucking odd all round.

 

[Scotty T]

Driven one? They are a bit fucking odd all round.

Haven't had the chance. I'm actually really bummed they didn't build the 300ze (00 zero emissions) proper electric 3 series instead of that. Could have had a Tesla competitor long ago if they tried. One thing I did hear though was they're using less rare earth metals.

 

[Scotty T]

Anyway I now need to find a couple of old school 0's to replace the 18 on mine. I'll have to get the ze made up, replace the classic "is" with the same font or fabricate an M badge with ZE?

 

[Dales Cannon]

Haven't had the chance. I'm actually really bummed they didn't build the 300ze (00 zero emissions) proper electric 3 series instead of that. Could have had a Tesla competitor long ago if they tried. One thing I did hear though was they're using less rare earth metals.

I had a chance to drive one after TopGear did their bit and I did wonder if Jezza was just feeding the machine by praising it. Anyway not for me, I prefer horse and buggies.

 

[Oddjob]

Yeah, Nissan and Mitsubishi did a great job with their electric cars on that front. Tesla is the sole reason they are now all flipping on electric cars. They didn't want to sell, support or service electric cars before Tesla started dominating by a very long way.

I'll take Sandy Munro's word on the quality control.

Umm maybe you are forgetting the large manufacturer beginning with T? The Prius (and to some extent the Insight) were the first low emissions vehicles to crack the US market.

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