Clutches aren't all equal?

silentbutdeadly

has some good things to say
I've got three clutched derailleurs, each of them different. Zee, XT and X9. None of them perform in quite the same way and I'm surprised to say that the XT is not performing to the standard set by the other two. It seems that the clutches are all set with a different resistance because only the XT produces chain slap. I know that Shimano clutches can be adjusted but I'm curious as to if different Shimano models have different settings and to what end? The physics of MTB aren't that different across the disciplines so why would the clutches need to be?

Looks like I'll have to learn how to adjust a clutch either way!
 

Knuckles

Lives under a bridge
Obviously an Xt will have more leverage than the zee and a long cage will have more than the mid cage. So the same clutch tension on the three different mechs will have three different effects.
 

Ezkaton

Eats Squid
Looks like I'll have to learn how to adjust a clutch either way!
I ended up tightening my Zee clutch a few weeks ago, it's super simple... all you need is an allen key to open the side of the derailleur and some long nose pliers to adjust the clutch. :)
Takes a good 5 mins, max.

Should be able to find some pics or YouTube vid on it pretty easily.
 

silentbutdeadly

has some good things to say
Obviously an Xt will have more leverage than the zee and a long cage will have more than the mid cage. So the same clutch tension on the three different mechs will have three different effects.
The differences in leverage will be slight at best - these are hardly heavy, inertia driven systems. Zee is an FR, XT and X9 are mid. Chain is the same on all three and all drive lines are 1x10, Zee is on duallie while the others are HT. Terrain ridden is much the same. Since the clutch is AFAIK only controlling chain 'bounce' (just the weight of the chain) then I'm curious as to why clutch performance on the XT would be factory set so much lighter than the Zee...especially if leverage was truly a factor.
 

Alex Dlugosch

Likes Dirt
Is your XT Shadow Plus mechanism intact? The XT mechanisms have a design flaw and the strap clamp that acts as the friction damper can often break. Open it up and give it a look. Otherwise just tighten it.

As far as the effect of the cage length, you could assume that a shorter cage would need a mechanism that produces less torque because the lever is shorter, i.e., a similar chain tension from chain bounce would create less torque on the cage pivot. So assuming a SS (Shimano's designation for short cage) derailleur and a SG (med) or SGS (long) derailleur all had identically set Shadow+ mechanisms (same opposing torque), the SS would provide the highest resisting force on the chain and the SGS would provide the least. And thus with the SS, the inertia of the chain run would have less effect on the position of the chain run, i.e., it would slap less.

As a side note, I hate how everyone has taken to call these things clutches. They're actually brakes. They couple a rotating element to a fixed element through friction, which is the definition of a brake. Clutches transfer rotational power, but brakes dissipate it, which is what Shadow+ and Type 2 does. They're just brakes that only act in one direction. You could also call them dampers, because they damp the oscillation of the chain. And like most dampers, they only operate in one direction.


Oh and as a second side note, the difference between the FR and DH Zee derailleurs isn't the cage; they both have SS cages. The difference is the Bracket Axle Unit; they have a fixed tab that bears on the tab on the derailleur hanger, the one that a non-Shadow derailleur's B-screw bears on. The FR version has this tab more forward so that the derailleur ends up further back over the cassette, so it can take bigger cogs. The DH version is closer and more closely follows the profile of a road cassette but can't handle a large cog. The Saint Bracket Axle Unit has a screw on "Mode Converter" that does the same thing without requiring a completely different part, but this is more expensive of course.
 
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ChopSticks

Banned
ahhhh Alex... dont you love the carefree/zero hassle of riding a SS hardtail... and putting all of us to shame? LOL
btw, we're riding LP tomorrow at 3pm.. care to join?
 

Alex Dlugosch

Likes Dirt
Haha yeah, although having one of these derailleurs almost makes that benefit of SS moot. But not entirely, you'll still always get some slap. Especially after an upshift (harder gear), Shadow+ mechanisms have a slight amount of backlash so that when the cage contracts (goes in the direction of spring torque) the Shadow+ mechanism has a slight amount of movement when it doesn't provide any opposing torque. This doesn't happen after you downshift (easier gear) because the cage extends. So you still get slap of the chain on top of the chainstay from this slight backlash. Especially in the high gears, since you've upshifted to get into them, and they run the chain closer to the chainstay.

And cheers, I'd love to but I'm working! Today I finished building an Open (your wallet) 29er that was 9.6 kg. Sadly they didn't have a Type 2 RD. Its an X0 long cage, eugh haha. I guess it is just an XC bike. Might be a bit scary to ride as hard as I ride my bike :p
 

silentbutdeadly

has some good things to say
You're right about the clutch being a brake. It's a drum brake in reverse! Learned something. Thanks!

Just tightened the XT up a smidge to see if that sorts the slap out. As Ez said it was a five minute job but it would've been faster if I had a 4 mm spanner and hadn't dropped one of the cover screws.

It's a new mech so nothing is broken as yet...
 

Ezkaton

Eats Squid
You're right about the clutch being a brake. It's a drum brake in reverse! Learned something. Thanks!

Just tightened the XT up a smidge to see if that sorts the slap out. As Ez said it was a five minute job but it would've been faster if I had a 4 mm spanner and hadn't dropped one of the cover screws.

It's a new mech so nothing is broken as yet...
Lemme know how it goes, man... I should be swapping out my Zee for an XT mid cage next week and I'm curious about the differences.
 

moorey

call me Mia
Lemme know how it goes, man... I should be swapping out my Zee for an XT mid cage next week and I'm curious about the differences.
I'm running both, I didn't find the 'clutch' tension any different out of the box. I cranked both up a little, but not too much, they are known to break. One of my 6 has done so, its now on my sons bike. My mate has broken 2 out of his 5.
 

Ezkaton

Eats Squid
I'm running both, I didn't find the 'clutch' tension any different out of the box. I cranked both up a little, but not too much, they are known to break. One of my 6 has done so, its now on my sons bike. My mate has broken 2 out of his 5.
Are they covered by warranty if the clutch breaks from user tampering, or only if left at stock?
 

PerthMTB

Likes Dirt
I've got three clutched derailleurs, each of them different. Zee, XT and X9. None of them perform in quite the same way and I'm surprised to say that the XT is not performing to the standard set by the other two. It seems that the clutches are all set with a different resistance because only the XT produces chain slap. I know that Shimano clutches can be adjusted but I'm curious as to if different Shimano models have different settings and to what end? The physics of MTB aren't that different across the disciplines so why would the clutches need to be?

Looks like I'll have to learn how to adjust a clutch either way!
The clutch unit in Shimano Deore, SLX, XT, Zee and Saint are all the same - same part numbers (only XTR is a different unit). The only difference is that Shimano set them at different torque settings from the factory - Saint/Zee are set at 3.1-4.1 Nm, whereas all the others are 3.5-5.4 Nm. So, torque is actually greater on the XT, and if you're getting chainslap I would suggest checking the cam mechanism closely - it's not always obvious that its breaking because the metal bracket splits first giving less tension before failing completely.
 

creaky

XMAS Plumper
For the same rotation of the clutch, you are getting more slackness in the chain on longer cage mechs. I'd say that is the reason for the higher torque settin in the longer cage mechs but also why they don't seem to be as effective as Zee/Saint.
 

PerthMTB

Likes Dirt
Ah, fair enough... I don't mind doing a full replacement on something over a year old if necessary.
They're not too expensive.
The cam unit which is failing on these can be ordered by any LBS from the Shimano distributor, and is also widely available online. It's part number Y5Y198120 and only cost five bucks. I ordered a couple of spares after my first one broke and now carry them with me on extended trips just in case.
 

SaabG

Likes Dirt
I've had a zee, xt and now a saint on my nomad and they've all slapped. I tightened the saint up so tight that I ended up snapping my gear cable so I loosened it off to an acceptable level but it's still slapping away. A mate of mine has a devinci dixon and he gets no slap at all. I think it just comes down to how close the chain line is to the chain stay. Mine seems to slap from the top (chain returning from cassette to front ring) which is a problem I doubt any derailleur would be able to fix.
 

Ezkaton

Eats Squid
The cam unit which is failing on these can be ordered by any LBS from the Shimano distributor, and is also widely available online. It's part number Y5Y198120 and only cost five bucks. I ordered a couple of spares after my first one broke and now carry them with me on extended trips just in case.
Good to know, thanks for the info. :)
 
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