Can America be fixed?

Cleverly

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The gun control groups also don't want to take all the guns, just the more military type of gun for want of a better description and better background checks.
Don't long rifles of all descriptions make up a tiny proportion of gun deaths? IIRC you're more likely to bludgeoned to death with someone's bare fists than you are to be shot by a rifle. If they actually wanted to make a meaningful change they should go after handguns.

Pretty sure history shows that mass shooting where there was an armed response (security/police/citizen) led to more deaths on average. Seems a fallacy to me that you need to be armed to protect yourself.
Only if they try and knock people out with an airborne sedative first.
 

Stredda

Runs naked through virgin scrub
Don't long rifles of all descriptions make up a tiny proportion of gun deaths? IIRC you're more likely to bludgeoned to death with someone's bare fists than you are to be shot by a rifle. If they actually wanted to make a meaningful change they should go after handguns.
Yes, I think you are right. Would be easier to conceal too and of course very difficult to put a ban on.
 

Haakon

Keeps on digging
Don't long rifles of all descriptions make up a tiny proportion of gun deaths? IIRC you're more likely to bludgeoned to death with someone's bare fists than you are to be shot by a rifle. If they actually wanted to make a meaningful change they should go after handguns.



Only if they try and knock people out with an airborne sedative first.
An AR15 is classed as a rifle i think...
 

Flow-Rider

Burner
The worst mass shootings in the US were mostly carried out by rifles.

The involvement of semi-automatic rifles in mass shootings
Owing to their use in several high-profile mass shootings, there has been much public discussion over suitability or necessity of assault weapons for the purpose of self-defense. While any definition of assault weapon is contentious, semi-automatic rifles are generally the main focus of debates around this issue. Since 1985 there has been a known total 50 mass shootings involving rifles, mostly semi-automatics. This figure is underreported though, as it excludes the multiple semi-automatic (and fully automatic) rifles used in the 2017 Las Vegas Strip massacre – the worst mass shooting in U.S. history, killing 58 and wounding 546. In fact, semi-automatic rifles were featured in four of the five deadliest mass shootings, being used in the Orlando nightclub massacre, Sandy Hook Elementary massacre and Texas First Baptist Church massacre.

390094


https://www.statista.com/statistics/476409/mass-shootings-in-the-us-by-weapon-types-used/
 

Litenbror

Eats Squid
Just out of curiosity, what's the paragraph above the one you quoted say? ;)
This is just pedantry, yes more mass shootings are carried out by hand guns and hand guns only have one purpose unlike legitimate rifles. There is also no way you could kill or injure 300 people with handguns! The number of mass shootings is higher with handguns the lethality is with rifles. I really don't understand people's desire to undermine legitimate debate on gun control.
 

Cleverly

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This is just pedantry, yes more mass shootings are carried out by hand guns and hand guns only have one purpose unlike legitimate rifles. There is also no way you could kill or injure 300 people with handguns! The number of mass shootings is higher with handguns the lethality is with rifles. I really don't understand people's desire to undermine legitimate debate on gun control.
Where the hell is that coming from?!
I'm simply pointing out that if you prevented every death from rifles (not even just AR-15's but all rifles) in the US, you solve about 2% of the problem with guns. Since when has pointing out a higher yield target for regulation an "undermine of the gun control debate"?
 

hellmansam

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At the time of Sandy Hook, I did a bit of looking up via Google re US gun laws, CCW permits etc.
What we see regarding their laws and ‘gun culture’ is very biased.
 

Flow-Rider

Burner
Just out of curiosity, what's the paragraph above the one you quoted say? ;)
Handguns are more common, obviously gang-related crimes, if you gave all those people a semi-auto rifle more people would be dead or injured. The figures even portray this.



Weapon types used in mass shootings in the United States between 1982 and June 2022, by number of weapons and incidents
390100
 

hellmansam

Likes Bikes and Dirt
Then it just becomes an arms race.
I don’t believe that’s how it is, that’s the kind of comment the twats on the Project or Sunrise would come out with. The practical considerations of what the gun crazed yanks call EDC and CCW are beyond their comprehension, and that of most Australians. You can’t really go about your everyday life toting an AR-15 ! Shooting is depicted in stupidly unrealistic ways on TV and in movies. From the little bit of reading I did, anyone who is serious about carrying a firearm as a normal part of their daily routine and being able to use it effectively, invests in training, and frequent shooting practice. Those are the people who have the potential to intervene in a useful way.
We don’t see any reporting of defensive firearm use in the US, but it happens plenty.
Our media only reports on the bad stuff when it comes to guns, a mass shooting is a bonanza for them and they make the most of it. Such media coverage is quite possibly a factor in some mass shootings.
Stereotyping the US population is simplistic and convenient when it comes to patting ourselves on the back for not being like them, with our excellent gun laws that keep us safe.
Put the outrage aside for a minute and consider if it’s realistic that those hundreds of millions of people are all that stupid/crazy as to fit the stereotypes bandied about. It’s just not that simple.

Having had an interest in hunting and competition target shooting since the early 90’s I’ve seen a lot of BS about gun laws and recreational shooting. Every time there’s a mass shooting in the US, the local Antis come out to reinforce the Guns Are Bad narrative and often claim we need to tighten our gun laws because they’ve been watered down.
The Law Reform Commission did a review of WA’s Firearms Act in 2015, one of the principles they use is that good laws don’t place unnecessary burden on law abiding people. They came up with around a hundred recommendations for changes to the more unreasonable regulations, some of which are quite peculiar to WA. Successive governments of both flavours have gotten away with ignoring them because it’s only those people who want to participate in the various shooting sports that are affected. Gun violence is pretty minimal in Australia but politicians get cheap political points for grandstanding on stronger gun laws etc etc. because the general public doesn’t have a clue about how well or how badly formulated our gun laws are, and seem to believe that more gun laws are better. It’s not their pastime that’s slowly dying the death of a thousand cuts.
All this has nothing to do with what goes on in the US but is a reflection of how government and media exploits these events.
 

Oddjob

Merry fucking Xmas to you assholes
I don’t believe that’s how it is, that’s the kind of comment the twats on the Project or Sunrise would come out with. The practical considerations of what the gun crazed yanks call EDC and CCW are beyond their comprehension, and that of most Australians. You can’t really go about your everyday life toting an AR-15 ! Shooting is depicted in stupidly unrealistic ways on TV and in movies. From the little bit of reading I did, anyone who is serious about carrying a firearm as a normal part of their daily routine and being able to use it effectively, invests in training, and frequent shooting practice. Those are the people who have the potential to intervene in a useful way.
We don’t see any reporting of defensive firearm use in the US, but it happens plenty.
Our media only reports on the bad stuff when it comes to guns, a mass shooting is a bonanza for them and they make the most of it. Such media coverage is quite possibly a factor in some mass shootings.
Stereotyping the US population is simplistic and convenient when it comes to patting ourselves on the back for not being like them, with our excellent gun laws that keep us safe.
Put the outrage aside for a minute and consider if it’s realistic that those hundreds of millions of people are all that stupid/crazy as to fit the stereotypes bandied about. It’s just not that simple.

Having had an interest in hunting and competition target shooting since the early 90’s I’ve seen a lot of BS about gun laws and recreational shooting. Every time there’s a mass shooting in the US, the local Antis come out to reinforce the Guns Are Bad narrative and often claim we need to tighten our gun laws because they’ve been watered down.
The Law Reform Commission did a review of WA’s Firearms Act in 2015, one of the principles they use is that good laws don’t place unnecessary burden on law abiding people. They came up with around a hundred recommendations for changes to the more unreasonable regulations, some of which are quite peculiar to WA. Successive governments of both flavours have gotten away with ignoring them because it’s only those people who want to participate in the various shooting sports that are affected. Gun violence is pretty minimal in Australia but politicians get cheap political points for grandstanding on stronger gun laws etc etc. because the general public doesn’t have a clue about how well or how badly formulated our gun laws are, and seem to believe that more gun laws are better. It’s not their pastime that’s slowly dying the death of a thousand cuts.
All this has nothing to do with what goes on in the US but is a reflection of how government and media exploits these events.
Umm this is BS.

In states with 'constitutional carry' laws people can and do carry ar15s around with zero training, and clue to be honest. See our favourite ar15 toting meme Jim Cooley https://www.washingtonpost.com/nati...5e0db4-79e9-11e6-bd86-b7bbd53d2b5d_story.html. And then the morons protecting 'freedom' like Kyle Rittenhouse, the guys with guns at the black lives matter protests and the Jan 6th insurrection. It only takes a small % of idiots amongst a 330 million population to ruin it for everyone, and they do.

And before you label me an anti-gun leftie, I shot competitive small and large bore rifle at school.

The statistics pretty much speak for themselves as well. European countries such as Switzerland and Finland have high levels of gun ownership due to their army structures, but the storage and use of the weapons is regulated. Thus the level of gun crime is significantly lower per capita compared to the USA.

I can't speak to situation in WA but my mate in the army over there wasn't too keen on hunting because of the risk from the other hunters.

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Dales Cannon

lightbrain about 4pm
Staff member
I don’t believe that’s how it is, that’s the kind of comment the twats on the Project or Sunrise would come out with. The practical considerations of what the gun crazed yanks call EDC and CCW are beyond their comprehension, and that of most Australians. You can’t really go about your everyday life toting an AR-15 ! Shooting is depicted in stupidly unrealistic ways on TV and in movies. From the little bit of reading I did, anyone who is serious about carrying a firearm as a normal part of their daily routine and being able to use it effectively, invests in training, and frequent shooting practice. Those are the people who have the potential to intervene in a useful way.
We don’t see any reporting of defensive firearm use in the US, but it happens plenty.
Our media only reports on the bad stuff when it comes to guns, a mass shooting is a bonanza for them and they make the most of it. Such media coverage is quite possibly a factor in some mass shootings.
Stereotyping the US population is simplistic and convenient when it comes to patting ourselves on the back for not being like them, with our excellent gun laws that keep us safe.
Put the outrage aside for a minute and consider if it’s realistic that those hundreds of millions of people are all that stupid/crazy as to fit the stereotypes bandied about. It’s just not that simple.

Having had an interest in hunting and competition target shooting since the early 90’s I’ve seen a lot of BS about gun laws and recreational shooting. Every time there’s a mass shooting in the US, the local Antis come out to reinforce the Guns Are Bad narrative and often claim we need to tighten our gun laws because they’ve been watered down.
The Law Reform Commission did a review of WA’s Firearms Act in 2015, one of the principles they use is that good laws don’t place unnecessary burden on law abiding people. They came up with around a hundred recommendations for changes to the more unreasonable regulations, some of which are quite peculiar to WA. Successive governments of both flavours have gotten away with ignoring them because it’s only those people who want to participate in the various shooting sports that are affected. Gun violence is pretty minimal in Australia but politicians get cheap political points for grandstanding on stronger gun laws etc etc. because the general public doesn’t have a clue about how well or how badly formulated our gun laws are, and seem to believe that more gun laws are better. It’s not their pastime that’s slowly dying the death of a thousand cuts.
All this has nothing to do with what goes on in the US but is a reflection of how government and media exploits these events.
Umm this is BS.

In states with 'constitutional carry' laws people can and do carry ar15s around with zero training, and clue to be honest. See our favourite ar15 toting meme Jim Cooley https://www.washingtonpost.com/nati...5e0db4-79e9-11e6-bd86-b7bbd53d2b5d_story.html. And then the morons protecting 'freedom' like Kyle Rittenhouse, the guys with guns at the black lives matter protests and the Jan 6th insurrection. It only takes a small % of idiots amongst a 330 million population to ruin it for everyone, and they do.

And before you label me an anti-gun leftie, I shot competitive small and large bore rifle at school.

The statistics pretty much speak for themselves as well. European countries such as Switzerland and Finland have high levels of gun ownership due to their army structures, but the storage and use of the weapons is regulated. Thus the level of gun crime is significantly lower per capita compared to the USA.

I can't speak to situation in WA but my mate in the army over there wasn't too keen on hunting because of the risk from the other hunters.

Sent from my M2012K11AG using Tapatalk
Got to agree with OJ. Not sure if you have actually been to the US and seen what goes on? I spent a fair bit of time in upstate NY and as far as their gun laws go it was strict. Emphasis on their gun laws. No open carry, no concealed carry without permit etc. But they could still leave guns in the house in whatever container or not that suited them. Guns in 'pickups' was common as was guns around the walls on display. No need to lock ammunition away and no need to remove bolts. Very lax by our standards. A Texan I spoke with kept loaded pistols in both his and wife's bedside tables (nightstands I think they call them). Oh and another in the ensuite medicine cabinet. I didn't ask about rifles and I am sure there were plenty of those. Just about everyone I spoke to had some form of firearm at home for "protection". My Japanese colleagues who were there were amazed at how easy it was to get a gun licence and own a gun here (talking in the early 2000s) but they were shocked about the US rules. Guy whose house I commented on earlier had multiple pistols and some of these were in bedrooms etc.

I don't doubt our attitudes and expectations play a big role and we don't feel the need to own a firearm for personal protection.

There is NO justification for an AR15 style rifle to be in a private collectors armoury.
 

Squidfayce

Eats Squid
It may surprise you that there are more firearms in the community now in Australia now than after the Howard gun laws were introduced and implemented.

I believe the key is: To have a firearms license you must be approved person with police background checks done and have completed an approved firearms safety course before this is issued. All license renewals require a fresh background check. Some convictions will require cancellation of firearm licenses in between those events.

Then there is a permit to acquire a firearm which must be applied for each firearm with some extended timeframes depending on the type of firearm and other factors.

All firearms and ammunition must be stored separately in locked steel/or suitable cabinets fixed to the floor or wall.

All of the above requirements we have here in Australia.
Imagine if the Americans were able to do this.

It's just too easy for unstable/ irisponsible people to get their paws on any firearms in the US.
I know a few people who own guns that most definately don't follow various rules like keep8ng the ammo separate or even keeping the gun in a safe. They only have these things because the law says they have to. People they know who own guns also don't follow these rules.

So agree with all the regs shops have to follow and various waiting periods and background checks etc, but the peripheral stuff is hard to police.
 

Dales Cannon

lightbrain about 4pm
Staff member
I know a few people who own guns that most definately don't follow various rules like keep8ng the ammo separate or even keeping the gun in a safe. They only have these things because the law says they have to. People they know who own guns also don't follow these rules.

So agree with all the regs shops have to follow and various waiting periods and background checks etc, but the peripheral stuff is hard to police.
Then they are idiots. Random checks do happen.
 

Squidfayce

Eats Squid
. European countries such as Switzerland and Finland have high levels of gun ownership due to their army structures, but the storage and use of the weapons is regulated. Thus the level of gun crime is significantly lower per capita compared to the USA.
No doubt those a factors, but I'd argue there are more relevant factors.
 

yuley95

soft-arse Yuley is on the lifts again
I don’t believe that’s how it is, that’s the kind of comment the twats on the Project or Sunrise would come out with.
Saying ‘That guy might have a gun so I’ll get a gun’ is the beginnings of an arms race. Or, to put it another way:

If I had the choice to be armed or unarmed in a society where the likelihood of coming up against that situation was real, I'd rather be armed than hoping the police got there in time.
I don’t see what the twats on Project, Sunrise, Fox, Sky or anything else have to do with it. We are having a pretty good conversation about it here.
 
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