Brakes Vs Balance

EsPeGe

Likes Bikes and Dirt
Hi all I am in the process of learning to manual (cos they still look cool as cat shit) and have a question for you trials guys given you rock at this stuff. I've been practising every night for an hour or so and am starting to slowly get there but I don't want to get into bad habits. I'm keen to know how much you guys are "feathering" the brakes to hold your position vs moving your hips forward. So far I'm using the brakes a lot which is having the expected result of dropping the front wheel unless I'm super light on them. As I am improving I am starting to use the brakes more and more to keep upright which means I can't roll very far. I'm hoping this is just a learning thing and I'll get past it with practice but I'm keen to avoid any bad habits. Any suggestions/tips/thoughts are much appreciated.

Cheers Scott.
 

cokeonspecialtwodollars

Fartes of Portingale
Although I can't really offer any advice to the OP because I'm at about the same point in the learning curve what I would like to know is a what point are you balancing?

I am finding that I get to a point where the bike unweights and then I panic, grab the brake and drop the front wheel.

Should I be aiming to keep some downward pull on the front end during the manual or do I need to try and keep it in that unweighted zone without looping out?
 

EsPeGe

Likes Bikes and Dirt
I am finding that I get to a point where the bike unweights and then I panic, grab the brake and drop the front wheel.

Should I be aiming to keep some downward pull on the front end during the manual or do I need to try and keep it in that unweighted zone without looping out?
I'm getting to be able to balance pretty well and only use the brakes when I start to go over the back. I'm not sure what you mean about keeping downward pull. I'm finding that as long as I keep my arms straight and weight right back I can go maybe 5-10m with an occasional longer one. I'm working on getting my hips moving forward and back now to stay upright. About 1/2 to 1 hour a day as often as possible. It's taken me about 8-10 hours so far. It's fun learning and seeing the progression especially since I'm 39, old dog and all.

Oh and for some context I'm on a Giant STP1 so a hardtail. Once I get that down I'm keen to get it on my full sus bike.
 

jda

Likes Bikes and Dirt
This really depends on the bike, some bikes are super easy to manual and others you have to fight. I remember my old SC Bullit I could manual that all day long, literally for kilometers if you wanted with ease, it just had a sweet spot on the back wheel that was very easy to hold there.

My current SC 5010 does not like to manual at all, the front wants to drop and the sweet spot is very close to being tipped off the back. So these days its not a trick I do very often.

Sorry that was not much help but I wanted to mention the bike makes a huge difference to your success.
 

cokeonspecialtwodollars

Fartes of Portingale
I'm not sure what you mean about keeping downward pull.
It sounded better in my head.
What I was attempting to convey is that there appear to be three zones or ranges of angles during a manual, these are as best as I can describe
Zone 1 - Starts from front wheel on the ground and continues through any point where the bike still wants to fall back down under it's own weight.
Zone 2 - The un-weighted zone, a very small zone where the bike no longer wants to fall forward.
Zone 3 - Looped out and you're on your backside.

Related back to my initial question should I be in Zone 2 during my manual is this the sweet spot everyone refers to or do the guys who do those seemingly effortless manuals hang around somewhere near the top of Zone 1. My problem is that it seems to be a very fine line between Zone 2 and 3 on my bike.

It's fun learning and seeing the progression especially since I'm 39, old dog and all
I'm in a very similar position to you 34 years old and enjoying taking a bit of time away from the daily grind to stretch the legs ans learn a new skill. I have found that initially the full suspension bike was easier as you got a little pop up from the pre-load although trying to hold it was a little harder as the hip movement needed to be more exaggerated to counter the suspension.
 

EsPeGe

Likes Bikes and Dirt
This really depends on the bike, some bikes are super easy to manual and others you have to fight. I remember my old SC Bullit I could manual that all day long, literally for kilometers if you wanted with ease, it just had a sweet spot on the back wheel that was very easy to hold there.

My current SC 5010 does not like to manual at all, the front wants to drop and the sweet spot is very close to being tipped off the back. So these days its not a trick I do very often.

Sorry that was not much help but I wanted to mention the bike makes a huge difference to your success.
From what I've heard the STP is pretty good to manual so I may have lucked out there. How big the sweet spot is I don't yet know but I'm getting there. Look out Bobby Root!!!!!

Cheers Scott.
 

EsPeGe

Likes Bikes and Dirt
Zone 1 - Starts from front wheel on the ground and continues through any point where the bike still wants to fall back down under it's own weight.
Zone 2 - The un-weighted zone, a very small zone where the bike no longer wants to fall forward.
Zone 3 - Looped out and you're on your backside.
That is actually a pretty good way of looking at it. Wish I could help you with an answer. I'm finding my reactions are still to slow to be able to bring the front back up when it starts to drop so maybe having it in the middle of "Zone 2" would be give you the best chance to keep it there but that's purely speculation. So far I have rarely gone over the back. 99% of the time it's the front dropping.

I'm in a very similar position to you 34 years old and enjoying taking a bit of time away from the daily grind to stretch the legs ans learn a new skill. I have found that initially the full suspension bike was easier as you got a little pop up from the pre-load although trying to hold it was a little harder as the hip movement needed to be more exaggerated to counter the suspension.
Yep I've been using the crap weather to get out and ride. Seeing as the trails are all muddy and I dont' want to rip them up I'm out on the street. I'm also finding out how much fun my old Giant is. It was my first MTB 10 years ago. Since then I changed it from nine speed to single speed (not a bloody fixie though) and put wider bars on. It's just a fun bike pure and simple.

Cheers Scott.
 

Ideate

Senior Member
It's definitely easier on a hardtail. I had an stp a few years ago and it was the best to manual. Although my Dartmoor hornet was pretty good too (vid below).. Anything with a short rear end and higher cockpit is generally easier to manual but it's all in the legs once you get it up. If you keep dropping the front end then you might need to get back further into the "spot" and squat more in the legs to give you more flex and push travel for when you need to push the bottom forward to keep the front up. Practice makes perfect though so keep it up.

[video=youtube_share;VS01oJDMQ-k]https://youtu.be/VS01oJDMQ-k[/video]
 

EsPeGe

Likes Bikes and Dirt
It's definitely easier on a hardtail. I had an stp a few years ago and it was the best to manual. Although my Dartmoor hornet was pretty good too (vid below).. Anything with a short rear end and higher cockpit is generally easier to manual but it's all in the legs once you get it up. If you keep dropping the front end then you might need to get back further into the "spot" and squat more in the legs to give you more flex and push travel for when you need to push the bottom forward to keep the front up. Practice makes perfect though so keep it up.
That looks sick. I am seeing exactly what you are saying in what I'm doing. My best "manuals" (term used loosely) I'm doing that. I just need to dial in the muscle memory with repetition like you say. I'm out generally a half hour to an hour a day and I am definitely noticing improvement which is really motivating. On a side note I wish I had somewhere like that to ride and DJ. Those jumps look fun without being insane.
 

cokeonspecialtwodollars

Fartes of Portingale
So something clicked tonight and I think I've cracked it, now able to get consistent 20m manuals before I run out of driveway, time to start playing in traffic.

To answer my own question the top half of Zone 1 is where I think you want to be, I have found that it seems there should always be a little bit of "resistance" from the front end of the bike if that makes sense. If I get into Zone 2 and the bike becomes weightless I still panic and grab the rear brake which brings me straight back down (at this point I am already sitting on the saddle so no room to move the hips further forward). Perhaps with some more practice I might get more comfortable hanging out in Zone 2.

Some things that are worth trying.
- Try raising up your handle bar height by swapping out spacers or go to a higher rise bar, the effect of this seemed to be it took less effort to lift the front end during the initial lift.
- Keep your eyes up, focus on a fixed object in the distance like a fence post or street light. This helps in maintaining a straight line and if you look at the ground this is where your front wheel will end up going.
- If you have one finger covering the rear brake try also having one finger over the front, I found this lead to a straighter pull back during the initial lift. My right side being the dominant hand always seemed to turn the bars slightly to this side if all of my fingers were wrapped around it.
 

EsPeGe

Likes Bikes and Dirt
So something clicked tonight and I think I've cracked it, now able to get consistent 20m manuals before I run out of driveway, time to start playing in traffic.

To answer my own question the top half of Zone 1 is where I think you want to be, I have found that it seems there should always be a little bit of "resistance" from the front end of the bike if that makes sense. If I get into Zone 2 and the bike becomes weightless I still panic and grab the rear brake which brings me straight back down (at this point I am already sitting on the saddle so no room to move the hips further forward). Perhaps with some more practice I might get more comfortable hanging out in Zone 2.

Some things that are worth trying.
- Try raising up your handle bar height by swapping out spacers or go to a higher rise bar, the effect of this seemed to be it took less effort to lift the front end during the initial lift.
- Keep your eyes up, focus on a fixed object in the distance like a fence post or street light. This helps in maintaining a straight line and if you look at the ground this is where your front wheel will end up going.
- If you have one finger covering the rear brake try also having one finger over the front, I found this lead to a straighter pull back during the initial lift. My right side being the dominant hand always seemed to turn the bars slightly to this side if all of my fingers were wrapped around it.
Awesome dude nailing it! I think I know what you mean about the front end feel.

I can't raise the bars any higher on my bike so I'll have to run with it as is but what you say makes sense. I also agree with looking further ahead instead of the road. I started trying to go the length of a single car park and every time I would always get to the line and no further. As soon as I started looking further ahead I got much further.

I also don't have a front brake so can't cover it off the way you suggest. You are right though, If I go sideways it's almost always left but I have pretty much stopped that now.

Interestingly I am not using the saddle at all. Its all the way down and couldn't sit on it if I tried. Are you using the saddle much?
 

EsPeGe

Likes Bikes and Dirt
After an hour or so of practice this morning I have noticed 2 distinct errors I'm making. Firstly I'm not lifting the bike correctly which means I'm not getting into the correct balanced position. This is coming along and I'm slowly getting it dialled by maybe lifting the front (maybe 1/3 of the way) with nice straight arms then pushing forward with my feet the rest of the way. Doing this I am getting it closer to the balanced position more frequently. The second thing I'm doing is over-reacting when I do get "balanced". This again will come with practice but essentially I feel the bike dropping or falling backwards and move the hips to correct but I'm going too far. I am almost never using the brakes except to stop falling over the back when I over correct.
 

cokeonspecialtwodollars

Fartes of Portingale
Keep chipping away at it, if you can continue to critique your technique and target the little things one by one you're well on the way to expert level manual status.
 

EsPeGe

Likes Bikes and Dirt
Keep chipping away at it, if you can continue to critique your technique and target the little things one by one you're well on the way to expert level manual status.
45 minutes today. Still no real long ones (5-10m max) but more frequently getting the front up properly. Now I have to work on maintaining the balance. Today was quite a few times "falling" sideways and having to drop the front to stop myself from eating concrete. Still progressing nicely so I'm happy.
 

Ideate

Senior Member
Got anyone to practice with? Riding and setting challenges with a budy always helps me progress.
 

EsPeGe

Likes Bikes and Dirt
Got anyone to practice with? Riding and setting challenges with a budy always helps me progress.
Was thinking exactly that this afternoon. I have riding buddies but they are all strictly off roaders that aren't interested in street stuff. Even though it is a useful all round skill and none of them can manual they just aren't up for it. Any and all applicants welcome!!!

Unless you wear Lycra.
 

cokeonspecialtwodollars

Fartes of Portingale
Regarding the falling sideways thing, from my experience this happened more frequently if I was going slower, remember the spinning inertia wheel experiment at places like Questacon. Also the eyes, make sure you stay focused on your stationary point in the distance. One other thing I found that worked if I started to make repeated mistakes was to stop doing manuals and try some sit down wheelies or bunny hops for a couple of minutes to 'reset' myself.
 
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