Sizing vs reach

[ashes_mtb]

To confuse things more, a fair few of the top enduro riders are sizing down as the bikes get longer..

I’m not an enduro rider but sized down from recommendations for two reasons. First, I was most interested the seated length, so looked more at the horizontal top tube length more than reach. Secondly, I was so used to old school 26ers I wanted to keep the wheelbase as short as I could.

 

[Cardy George]

Paging Dr @beeb nson

Here's an interesting piece.

How Wide is Too Narrow? A Season of Handlebar Width Experimentation

Wider mountain bike handlebars are better, until they're not. Gerow experiments to see how narrow he can go while still maintaining control.

www.singletracks.com

My bars are getting a bit scruffy. Might use them to experiment when I gather the funds for fresh ones.

 

[beeb]

Paging Dr @beeb nson

Here's an interesting piece.

How Wide is Too Narrow? A Season of Handlebar Width Experimentation

Wider mountain bike handlebars are better, until they're not. Gerow experiments to see how narrow he can go while still maintaining control.

www.singletracks.com

My bars are getting a bit scruffy. Might use them to experiment when I gather the funds for fresh ones.

Bloody excellent article @Cardy George - after all it's not about fashion, it's about what works/feels right to the rider.

So rare to hear this mentioned:

...one reason some folks may want to reduce bar width is to more easily lean their bike over and access the tires’ grippier shoulder knobs.

People are often surprised I don't run my bars longer than I do, but this is exactly why. I love laying the bike over underneath me. Lean the bike and it turns by itself, rather than having to "turn the bars" constantly. But, I'm also one of those weirdos that loves flow trails (more than gnar/tech/rocks/gaps/etc...) because when it all comes together it's just a high speed zen made of berms and rollers - just pump the trail and it's like it's all the speed comes for free. Super long bars mean I have to steer with the bars, or drop my shoulder down to get enough "travel" to lean the bike over enough to where it feels right (for me), which means I have to be very deliberate and is very non-zen.

This is a very good indicator of when you've gone too short on the bar length though:

The wheel pulled hard against me in fast turns and compressions, and I had the sense that one ill-placed rock could rip the bars from my hands...

 

[Cardy George]

Bloody excellent article @Cardy George - after all it's not about fashion, it's about what works/feels right to the rider.

So rare to hear this mentioned:

People are often surprised I don't run my bars longer than I do, but this is exactly why. I love laying the bike over underneath me. Lean the bike and it turns by itself, rather than having to "turn the bars" constantly. But, I'm also one of those weirdos that loves flow trails (more than gnar/tech/rocks/gaps/etc...) because when it all comes together it's just a high speed zen made of berms and rollers - just pump the trail and it's like it's all the speed comes for free. Super long bars mean I have to steer with the bars, or drop my shoulder down to get enough "travel" to lean the bike over enough to where it feels right (for me), which means I have to be very deliberate and is very non-zen.

This is a very good indicator of when you've gone too short on the bar length though:

The new stem seems to have helped, but instead of doing the smart thing by only changing the stem, I changed the stem, grips, tyres and put my carbon race wheels on. A week down the track, I'm starting to acclimatise to the new feel, and it is much better.

Out of curiosity, what are you running your bars at? Mine are untouched 730, I could probably start nibbling now .

 

[beeb]

Sentinel: 780mm and 50mm stem.
Waltly: ~760mm-ish and 50mm stem.
Highball: 740mm and 80mm stem.

Bear in mind I’m 6’2”/188cm so probably a bit more wingspan to work with…

 

[ozzybmx]

Paging Dr. Beebenson, PhD HA, ST, Offset (hons)

Here's an interesting piece.

It certainly is !

I am 176cm (wide shoulders) and all 3 of my MTB's are 800mm.

Would love to cut them down but when I look at my hands, they are at the outside of the grips at all times.

Might start nibbling myself... ops, did I just type that, might be open to interpretation

 

[kten]

It certainly is !

I am 176cm (wide shoulders) and all 3 of my MTB's are 800mm.

Would love to cut them down but when I look at my hands, they are at the outside of the grips at all times.

Have you tried smaller bars? The outside of the grip thing will always be the same on any bar imo it's just natural to hold the bar at the widest point for control and to give your brain a point of reference to avoid trees.

 

[ozzybmx]

Have you tried smaller bars? The outside of the grip thing will always be the same on any bar imo it's just natural to hold the bar at the widest point for control and to give your brain a point of reference to avoid trees.

Yeah... right back from the mid 2000's XC bars at 580mm.
Just got more comfortable with bars getting wider.
I wouldn't ever go bigger than 800mm as it feels good but Ideally I would like to be on around 760mm.

Doesn't sound a lot

 

[Cardy George]

Update time. Now that my brain has adapted.

The changes:

10mm longer stem
5mm of each end of the Bars
Effectively added 1.5 tokens and 10psi less to the fork
Pirelli Scorpion XC tyres

So, there were a few changes, and while individually they weren't huge, collectively they were massively effective. The lower pressure in the fork helped with weight transfer. The way the head angle and stem angle interact means I gained length but no height, dragging that weight forward without changing my centre of gravity. And the shorter bars help lay the bike over to take advantage of the bigger side knobs of the tyre.

In summary, it feels like a new bike. It just works, the front end works with the back end and I'm not having to think about my technique to get the most out of it.

Big props to @beeb and @SummitFever for their brains on this one.

 

[cammas]

Ok time to looking at bikes, I don’t have the biggest if budgets but looking to spend around $3-3.5K so no doubt it will be secondhand. Don’t need huge amounts of travel so thinking around the 120mm mark and 29er

So thinking possibly a 2020 or 21 Trance but read somewhere it’s a bit mushy to pedal compared to the Anthem (my last dually), is that something that could be rectified with volume spacers? From previous discussions in this thread I guess I would lean towards a large?

Others I was thinking of would be slightly older like a early SC Tallboy V2 or Pivot 429, the Scott Sparks don’t really do it for me is anything else I should consider, Norco Optic?

One other that did pop up was the Canyon Neuron but at 140mm travel does seem a little excessive. I know, I know, it’s rotorburn longer & slacker is betterer but I really favour pedal efficiency and prefer long days in the saddle hence my thoughts on a Trance or the like.
https://www.canyon.com/en-au/mounta...uron-6/3156.html?dwvar_3156_pv_rahmenfarbe=GN

 

[leitch]

@cammas its a tough travel range. Your options tend to be either beefed up xc bikes (e.g Lux trail etc - XC race bikes with longer forks) or short travel enduro sleds like the Optic or new Spectral 125. I’d cut the second category from your thinking.

The Trance 29 is something I’d look closely at. 115/130mm in a package that’s a bit more capable and versatile than an XC race bike with some extra travel, but without being a “short travel” version of a big hitter.

 

[SummitFever]

Trance 29 pedals OK with the shock fully open but not as efficient as the Anthem. I've got the factory supplied DPX2 on mine and run it open almost all the time. For a 100km ride out into the mountains I will lock it out on the tarmac (if I remember) but it doesn't wallow enough that you immediately notice it.

 

[cammas]

@cammas its a tough travel range. Your options tend to be either beefed up xc bikes (e.g Lux trail etc - XC race bikes with longer forks) or short travel enduro sleds like the Optic or new Spectral 125. I’d cut the second category from your thinking.

The Trance 29 is something I’d look closely at. 115/130mm in a package that’s a bit more capable and versatile than an XC race bike with some extra travel, but without being a “short travel” version of a big hitter.

Thanks that’s what pointed me in the direction of the Trance, I thought of another Anthem and adding a 120mm fork but it ends so similar to a Trance plus I still have my hardtail if I ever want to race again.

 

[leitch]

Thanks that’s what pointed me in the direction of the Trance, I thought of another Anthem and adding a 120mm fork but it ends so similar to a Trance plus I still have my hardtail if I ever want to race again.

Yeah sorry, I realised after writing it and re-reading your post that I'd only told you what you already knew. But I've had a Trance 29-shaped hole in my ideal bike line up for a while, they look like a great bike for 90% of riding around these parts.

Other option which is a bit more like the Neuron is the new carbon flex-stay Stumpjumper... 130/140mm, zippy little thing with good trail character. But too $$.

 

[beeb]

Yeah sorry, I realised after writing it and re-reading your post that I'd only told you what you already knew. But I've had a Trance 29-shaped hole in my ideal bike line up for a while, they look like a great bike for 90% of riding around these parts.

Other option which is a bit more like the Neuron is the new carbon flex-stay Stumpjumper... 130/140mm, zippy little thing with good trail character. But too $$.

FWIW, my Carbonda FM936 is quite similar in ride-feel to the Trance 29er, and defintely not too many $$.

Let me know if you want to take it for a spin sometime.

 

[kten]

can you stretch to the $$ for the Prime that’s for sale on here?

 

[moorey]

can you stretch to the $$ for the Prime that’s for sale on here?

This. Was working on my mate to buy it for his huge son. It’s a fine machine.

 

[leitch]

FWIW, my Carbonda FM936 is quite similar in ride-feel to the Trance 29er, and defintely not too many $$.

Let me know if you want to take it for a spin sometime.

I can't get over my stupid dislike for the rear triangle aesthetic. I'd get an S3 and cop the weight penalty of the extra pivot based on that alone. Yes I'm a vain idiot. Does look like it would ride great though.

 

[beeb]

I can't get over my stupid dislike for the rear triangle aesthetic. I'd get an S3 and cop the weight penalty of the extra pivot based on that alone. Yes I'm a vain idiot. Does look like it would ride great though.

I very nearly didn't buy it for the same reason. Doesn't look as bad (IMO) in person.

 

[birddog69]

Thanks that’s what pointed me in the direction of the Trance, I thought of another Anthem and adding a 120mm fork but it ends so similar to a Trance plus I still have my hardtail if I ever want to race again.

I have a 2019 Trance 29er 1. Their top spec alloy model. The difference in weight, if that is important, to the carbon is about 500 g ( I am told). I like the geo and the bike is great for about 80% of my riding. Most of which is on the foot hills of Mt Wellington. I feel, from your comments, this bike might suit you. It's not for the top half of Maydena,and some times the short travel rear end does hang up on the steeper, rocky trails. I have ridden it all around Derby (I haven't ridden Shear Pin or Trouty, though I think it would be alright) and was good on the Northwest trails. Same issue on the Iron Tor with the rear end hang up a bit.
Great on the flowy stuff and reasonably light.
I have taken some of the weight out with lighter wheels and components in anticipation of a long (4,500 kms ) ride we plan to start in July. If that work out I will keep it for long days in the saddle and look for another to compliment it.
Long post I know; just wanted to give some context to my comments.